[Grovenet] Digest, Vol 18, Issue 12 morphed with data collection

Sat May 13 09:25:47 PDT 2006

I'd like to say "Welcome to you," too, Joy.  :)

Nicely said, Katie.  But when you say, "History is fascinating
when you study it but I fear that this president gets concepts
confused in his mind and does not understand the principle
behind why people are upset.   He doesn't see the bigger
picture. He is so narrowly focused on some nebulous 'enemy'
that he can't see the shredding of the constitution in the
process," I feel you are being too kind regarding Bush's
motives ...  :)

It's all about the money.  It's all about having no capacity for
empathy.  It's all about people who don't care about history or
learning from it other than how to manipulate circumstances to
fit a personal agenda of greed.  It's all about behaving as if
we the people are too stupid to see what they're doing.

In other words, the circumstances of the existence of enemies
of the U.S. have been used by Bush & Co for Bush & Co's
personal gain.  Fear is constantly drilled into us and used as an
excuse for their lies and manipulations and breaking of laws.

'W' always said he wanted to be a "wartime president."  Why
do we suppose that is?!

I'd also like to remind people -- you know, people who are
actually interested in history, and who'd use lessons learned
from it to help the country, the world, etc., be a better
place -- that our American founders were generally progressive
and liberal in their thinking ...  meaning that they wanted to
change laws and ways of the old country, so as to improve life.
It's the reason so many from other countries have come here
over the last couple centuries, to start fresh in a place they
considered less suppressive to them in various ways.  It is part
of the basic identity of America (and of course legality is important
to immigration, too).  To meddle with and deny the Constitution
and even the Bill of Rights is to go against America.

Geri

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Saturday, May 13, 2006 8:28 AM
Subject: [Grovenet] Digest, Vol 18, Issue 12 morphed with data collection

: Good point Joy.
: Also it is good to keep in mind some of the basic reasons that led to the 
: founding of this country.
: Way back then the British were able to control many aspects of people's 
: lives. Too many according to our founding fathers.  So, they set up the 
: government with only limited powers.  Any power that the federal government 
: was going to have, had to be given to them.  The feds could have what was 
: given to them and only what was given to them. Everything else went to the 
: states and the people themselves.
: The feds could get power or information if they had a 'reason to know' and 
: that power was under the scrutiny of the courts (to make sure they didn't go 
: beyond the constitution) and subject to the balancing of the congress as 
: well.
: What is happening today seems to be a fracturing of opinion along these 
: lines:
: A) It is not that big of a deal that Bush wants to collect patterns of data 
: that could help catch terrorists so who cares how he does it.
: B) When the president has an option to do something legally vs. doing the 
: same thing illegally why does he prefer to do it the illegal way, when it 
: would be so simple to work with the courts and congress to get what he wants 
: in the first place.
: 
: To me it boils down to how he wants to get his power and how he wants to use 
: it.  I don't have a problem with Bush collecting some data but why trust a 
: guy who would rather do it with absolutely no oversight and no one to temper 
: his uses for it.  Humans have a tendency to abuse power if they aren't 
: stopped in some fashion.  I don't mean this as a slam against Bush, because 
: I believe that any one of us would be tempted to cross the line into 
: political shenanigans if we thought we could not get caught.  Bush is no 
: different and he is amusing when he asks us to trust him that this data is 
: only going to be used as it should so he doesn't any oversight from anybody. 
: The famous 'trust but verify' rings true here as well.  I just want the 
: verify component to be available.
: 
: The other thing that people tend to forget is that there is a fundamental 
: difference in dealings between essentially private parties (like in a real 
: estate deal) where each side has roughly equal capabilities and power vs. 
: when the big huge government who controls armies deals with citizens.  The 
: constitution is (or was) to protect citizens from the awesome power that the 
: government could bring to bear upon individuals because it wasn't a fair 
: match.  So, you have to be careful in comparing getting utility records to 
: evaluate a business deal between two people, which  inherently makes the 
: deal more fair and comparing that to a huge powerful government who already 
: can squash you if they choose to, collecting more data to squash you 
: further.  Data collection in the first case keeps things equal, but in the 
: second it takes a mismatch and makes it more of a mismatch.
: 
: When they wrote the constitution they seemed to understand the difference 
: between individuals dealing with each other and governments dealing with 
: citizens because they had experience with big governments being unfair to 
: citizens.
: History is fascinating when you study it but I fear that this president gets 
: concepts confused in his mind and does not understand the principle behind 
: why people are upset.   He doesn't see the bigger picture. He is so narrowly 
: focused on some nebulous 'enemy' that he can't see the shredding of the 
: constitution in the process.
: 
: 
: Katie
: 
: ----- Original Message ----- 
: From: <JBlair2154 at aol.com>
: To: <grovenet at rdrop.com>
: Sent: Friday, May 12, 2006 8:55 PM
: Subject: [Grovenet] Re: GroveNet Digest, Vol 18, Issue 12
: 
: 
: > Thanks for the welcomes, Beth and Katie.
: > This format is a little tricky for me to follow, since I can't  always
: > remember who said what --unless I take the time to scroll back and back 
: > and back,
: > and I'm far too impatient to do that.  LOL
: > But I do have a couple of minor comments regarding the discussion  I'm
: > reading. First, the question of a utility company allowing others to see a
: > customer's records. Personally, I think it's important for a potential 
: > home  buyer to
: > have the facts regarding the energy requirements of a particular home.  My
: > husband and I have asked for this information in the past, in other 
: > states,  and
: > the realtor has had no problem providing it. I think in these cases, the
: > realtor merely asked to see the homeowner's records and wrote down the 
: > highest
: > amount paid, something like that. Of course, this means a prospective 
: > buyer must
: > trust the realtor to be truthful, and in some cases, the homeowner might
: > refuse  to cooperate. (This would instantly make me feel the utility bills 
: > must
: > be very  high.) So I guess my stance on this issue is that it would be 
: > okay for
: > a utility  company to provide a year's worth of records to prospective 
: > buyers
: > of an  existing home. The entire security vs privacy issue, in fact, may
: > hinge around  the buzz phrase my husband taught me during his Air Force 
: > career:
: > "Need to  Know."  If someone has a legitimate "need to know" certain 
: > facts,
: > then  privacy issues must take a back seat. Otherwise, it's "NOYB". In 
: > other
: > words,  your right to extend your fist stops at my nose.
: >
: > Joy
: >
: > _______________________________________________
: > GroveNet mailing list
: > GroveNet at rdrop.com
: > http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
: > 
: 
: 
: _______________________________________________
: GroveNet mailing list
: GroveNet at rdrop.com
: http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet