[Grovenet] draft vs. volunteer

Sun Nov 26 16:17:56 PST 2006

I think you make good points, Beth! 

I don't agree, but I have no criticism and sincerely thank you for your
views. I often chose to say something not just because I believe it is so,
but because I suspect it is not representative of the most common opinion.
I always hope others will find another point of view. What's the value of
preaching to the choir? A forum like this has value only to the extent we
share views and experiences that are a little different from those of
others.  

I think war is one of the most awful things ever to face human beings. Some
warp their thoughts sufficiently that they can actually look forward to it.
We "older" folks do that purposely to the children of our society to try to
get them to enlist to fight when a war comes along or we try to hide the
reality of what they are preparing to do. Notice how all the recruiting ads
today stress everything BUT the fact that those who join learn to kill other
people? 

Even with all the mental conditioning we can think of, people still balk
when it comes to actually killing the "enemy". That hesitation, even for an
instant, to actually kill another is responsible for a lot of our combat
casualties.  The forces that need to train soldiers for face-to-face combat
work very hard to condition troops not to think about it when the time
comes. What does that training do to them for life? It's not something that
is set aside when one puts on civilian clothes. 

I escaped combat but I served at 6th Army Hq at Fort Ord, CA after Korea
where we had many "vets". I served with an Army National Guard unit, half of
whose complement of 260 men never came back from Korea. Half were dead or so
severely wounded they'd never return to a normal civilian life. 

At Fort Ord I was walking down a street through the main part of the post
one evening when the unmistakable blast of a 45 automatic pistol shot echoed
through the buildings. A soldier lay dead in an alley. He had shot himself
through the head while on guard duty. (Guard duty is one of the few times a
soldier will carry live ammunition on a post like that.) His buddies said he
had been threatening to do it for months to escape the nightmares of combat
in Korea. They knew lots of others who said the same thing. What were they
to do, lock up all vets for fear they would collapse under the strain? 

We had a sergeant, a Korean vet, in our barracks who would start storming
around the barracks waving a rifle claiming the enemy was  infiltrating us.
Fortunately, we didn't have a live ammunition in the barracks, but he had a
bayonet on that rifle! 

For every one of those a thousand or more returned to civilian life. 

So I don't suggest universal military duty lightly. 

I share your concerns about the leaders of our country. President Bush, who
had more important things to do than fulfill his military obligation, is an
excellent example. That's why I want tomorrow's leaders to be veterans of
military service, if not veterans of war. 

I have had close friends in Israel. Their children grew up and served in the
military. I've never seen one of them who wants war. Indeed, we here in  the
USA have gone to war with far less threat or provocation than the people of
Israel. I wonder how Americans would respond after suffering a half century
of 9/11 attacks and daily terrorism with all-out wars thrown in with them?
We Americans, their neighbors and supposedly their friends, have allowed
whole generations of Israelis to be raised who have never known a single day
of peace, a single day free of terrorist threat or military attack. Is it
any wonder many of them act like the soldiers I knew at Fort Ord? Whose
fault is that? 

Let's consider others who have universal military service who aren't being
attacked almost daily and consider their track record: the Swiss, the
Norwegians, the Finns, the Swedes just to name a few. 

My position is that its unspeakably ghastly to subject our children to war,
no matter the reason for their going, but we adults have yet to do what it
takes to make war obsolete. As long as it's someone else's child who goes,
it's less ghastly and that's a problem. Especially when we all depend upon
their sacrifice to survive. Why does that child risk being killed or maimed
and  not our own? 

Yes, I agree, if we all slaughtered our own dinner we'd have fresher meat as
well as more vegetarians. And I think we'd all have a much deeper
appreciation for the processes in the world that give us our sustenance. I
don't believe one can intellectually encompass what it means to kill another
living thing. I can still remember the first time I killed an animal. I
remember it because I killed it for sport, something I never did again.
Indeed, I've learned to not only thank God  for the food I get, but to thank
the animals who have provided me with their flesh as well. Those are lessons
one can't get out of a book. 

Likewise, as long as we wage war, the act of learning war and training for
war and, on occasion, fighting war have lessons one can't get out of a book,
and without those lessons we are unlikely to see how important it is to end
war. 

Ron D'Eau Claire 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Beth Genly
Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 1:20 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] draft vs. volunteer

I am very hesitant to respond to this thread. But I feel I must.

Ron, David, I very strongly appreciate that you gave many years of your life
to our military, because you believed you were doing the right thing for our
country (as well as trying to have a little control over whether you ended
up being shot at).

I was a teenager and in my early 20's in the 60's and 70's -- during the
long drawn-out end of the Vietnam War and the secret bombing of Cambodia.  I
was -- and still am -- very idealistic about the Constitution, the Bill of
Rights, and the freedoms and obligations of U.S. citizenship.

However, I was then, and I am now, extremely pessimistic about the ability
of some of our leaders to stay on the moral high ground, or even in its
general vicinity, any more.  When I think about what happened to the hearts
and minds of our brave and loyal -- but very young -- soldiers at Abu
Ghraib, I know that I do not ever want anyone's child exposed to that kind
of evil and warping.  And as far as I can tell, that aberration was a)
widespread, and b) came from the very top. Or perhaps you want to argue that
Abu Ghraib was just a small aberration, and most of our soldiers never were
in that kind of situation.  You are probably right, although I think it
scarred all our psyches, every one of us.  But try illegal invasion of a
sovereign nation based on a lie, and such incompetent management of the
invasion that we cannot even stop widespread looting within days of
"winning."  And so on, ad nauseam. Sentimental words about the obligation to
serve our country "as long as it needs a military"  do not strike me as
clear-thinking in that context.  And generally I admire both of you as very
clear thinkers.

Also, I believe that universal military service is very unlikely to result
in the general public's being less likely to go along with whatever insane
war our leaders drag us into -- look at Israel.   I apologize, but I think
the proverb ought to go:  if we all had to slaughter our own dinner, most of
us would simply have fresher meat.

I am afraid of the barrage of criticism that might follow this comment, but
I feel I must say it.

Beth

David Morelli wrote: 

On Nov 25, 2006, at 3:38 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

...

There's an old saying that if we all had to slaughter our own  

dinner there'd be a lot more vegetarians. It think it's true. And  

if we all had to slaughter our own chosen enemies there'd be a lot  

fewer enemies and a lot fewer wars.

Ron D'Eau Claire

That is a strong argument for mandatory, universal military or  

alternative service.  If your children are in the uniform, you may be  

more conscientious about advocating war for trivial reasons.  Maybe.

After six years of active duty, I did form a strong opinion about the  

desirability of having the military running a country.

David

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