[Grovenet] Avoiding WAR (WAS: draft vs. volunteer)

Mon Nov 27 14:37:15 PST 2006

Very well put Mike. I especially like, "My guess is that the "real enemy" is
within--those structural conditions that lead people to total despair, drug
abuse, fruitless lives, hopelessness.  As a society, we can and must do
better in this regard. In many ways, we have attacked the wrong enemy."

I'm just glad I'm not the expert with the answers, because I don't have
them. 

Humankind moves forward in small increments. I have to believe we are
incrementally addressing the issues preventing peace. 

Ron D'Eau Claire

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Steele, Mike
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 11:20 AM
To: Ed Davie; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Avoiding WAR (WAS: draft vs. volunteer)

Some thoughts on this exchange:

The US currently has 15:1 firepower superiority over the rest of the world.

This has its limits, as we have seen in both VN and the current mess. We
can't turn a place into a parking lot and call it victory.  

Do we have enough?  Well, we probably have far too much.  

Can we get by with less?  Yes...and have plenty of revenue leftover to
address the countless issues that afflict us and the world.

This could lead to a reduction of tensions and conflicts.

Those hostile to us have serious problems with what is technically called
"force projection"--as the N. Koreans learned recently when their little
missile exploded 42 seconds into flight.  Having weapons is useless for
aggressive warfare if you are unable to bring them to bear where you want
them.

This leaves flying planes into tall buildings, etc....we're working on
defending that...but due to the abovementioned 15:1 ratio, we don't have the
resources available to cover this adequately...esp. in terms of our port
facilities.

My guess is that the "real enemy" is within--those structural conditions
that lead people to total despair, drug abuse, fruitless lives,
hopelessness.  As a society, we can and must do better in this regard. In
many ways, we have attacked the wrong enemy.

So, the US is currently a massive Goliath-like operation in terms of
security and the ability to respond appropriately to perceived and real
threats.  We need to rethink the military doctrines that have led us to this
impasse.  More/bigger is not necessarily better or more functional. As
someone once said, countries always fight the wrong war--usually the last
war, and err in doing so.  Can we escape that trap?

Can we go about solving the real problems?  I hope so.

--Mike

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Ed Davie
Sent: Monday, November 27, 2006 10:44 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Avoiding WAR (WAS: draft vs. volunteer)

We'll never know, of course. To utilize any 
non-violent methods consideration must be given 
long before the hostilities begin. Once things 
reach that point it's obviously too late for 
negotiation or anything like it.
Presumably, something could have been worked out 
if proper communication had taken place.
Diplomacy frequently is cut off way too soon in 
any potential conflict.
Ed

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Ron D'Eau Claire
  To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
  Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 11:16 PM
  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Avoiding WAR (WAS: draft 
vs. volunteer)

  Then may I ask what the Quaker response to Pearl 
Harbor would have been?

  One of the problems of having a "country" is 
that we must be prepared to
  defend it if we want to keep it. Otherwise, why 
bother? We bother to have a
  country so we can have things like the Bill of 
Rights. But if we don't
  defend our country, the Bill of Rights is soon 
gone. People who work in the
  governments of countries have the primary 
responsibility of protecting that
  government and things like the Bill of Rights no 
matter the cost. That's why
  we fought WWII.

  Is it possible to live as "free" men and women 
without those protections or
  is the answer to submit to the slavery of 
whomever wants to run the show?

  It's a conundrum for which I have no answer. I'm 
really interested in
  whether anyone does.

  Ron D'Eau Claire

  -----Original Message-----
  From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com 
[mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
  Behalf Of Ed Davie
  Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 9:25 PM
  To: Forest Grove local interests list
  Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Avoiding WAR (WAS: draft 
vs. volunteer)

  Quakers have had a non-violent training program
  for many years, at least back in New York.
  I suspect it exists around here too although I
  haven't seen any evidence of it.
  It starts in the schools and also in the 
prisons.
  It has been very effective on a limited scale. 
But
  of course, not something governments are willing
  to look at closely. And not easily implemented,
  I'm afraid.
  I'm sure the details are available online,
  probably www.nyym.org.
  Ed
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Ron D'Eau Claire
    To: 'Forest Grove local interests list'
    Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 7:30 PM
    Subject: [Grovenet] Avoiding WAR (WAS: draft 
vs.
  volunteer)

    What are those options and now might they be
  implemented?

    Yes, I am a strong believer in a world
  government. Countries like ours (and
    most, actually) live with relative internal
  peace because all the citizens
    accept control by the state in a great many
  things. At least it's been a
    century and a half since we fought a war among
  ourselves and it's been much,
    much longer for many other countries.

    It would seem that moving that model up to a
  global level would produce the
    same results.

    Ron D'Eau Claire

    -----Original Message-----
    From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com
  [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
    Behalf Of Ed Davie
    Sent: Sunday, November 26, 2006 7:21 PM
    To: Forest Grove local interests list
    Subject: Re: [Grovenet] draft vs. volunteer

    For many years, I have believed that a "World
    Government" would solve a lot of problems.
    Very difficult to attain, I'm sure.
    "National Sovereignty" certainly is a problem
    world wide!

    Are there other options to our present
  situation?
    The Quakers and many others believe so.
    As we say, "War is not the answer!"
    Ed

    _______________________________________________
    GroveNet mailing list
    GroveNet at rdrop.com
    http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
  _______________________________________________
  GroveNet mailing list
  GroveNet at rdrop.com 
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

  _______________________________________________
  GroveNet mailing list
  GroveNet at rdrop.com
  http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet