[Grovenet] Krystof's response

Tue Oct 3 14:58:00 PDT 2006

[It wasn't my intention to send the e-mail only to you.  I hit the reply button and often, because of the configuration of the Reply-To: field in the original e-mail, my replies go only to the sender even thought it seems the messages come from Grovenet.  I sometimes catch this and correct the To: field in the outgoing message but sometimes I don't.]

  OK, so let me be a man: I am against illegal immigration.  However, I would not put people on buses and I would not go to Cornelius to protest the immigrants.  I would enforce all employment laws and I would  build a wall.  I would not extend any benefits to illegal immigrants beyond some basic humanitarian help.  If we need more immigrants let us increase quotas.  I want employers to be as free from taxation and regulations as possible  but I want them to compete within some sane environment.

  I don't know people you call minute-men but I would guess that if this issue were put to a vote, you wouldn't like the outcome.  Remember the marriage referendum?  Where would Jesus stand on that one?

  People who come to the US through the southern border know they do it illegally but they do it anyway.  So I don't understand how I smear them.  Maybe saying that they yearn to break the law is too strong but this was a play on the original words on the statue of liberty.  That's why we have cartoons; they exaggerate the point they try to make.  I wonder if Bob would stand behind every word on every cartoon he has sent.  I hope not.

  I do not care what Jesus would do.  My allegiance as a US citizen is to the laws of this country and nothing else (not France, not UN, not even Poland.)  I do not believe in breaking laws because of my beliefs.  I believe in changing laws to suit my beliefs trough democratic process.  I have to admit I do speed occasionally though.  As another Jesus exercise, however, try this: On which side of an abortion clinic protest would Jesus stand?  Btw, October is a pro-life month in the Catholic church.

  I wasn't implying that there was a rule on Grovenet against bringing religion into our discussions.  But it seems that there are many here who object to so called right-wing Christians trying to legislate morality.  If religion shouldn't be used when the subject is abortion or homosexual marriage, why is it OK to use religion when we discuss so called social-justice issues?  I can argue all without mixing religion.

  I do talk about politics with my children and I would want them to some day share my views.  They do now, of course, but I don't think they fully understand all the ramifications.  I expect that one they will rebel as I did and venture briefly onto the wrong side, but, like me, they will be back.

  As you may know, I am an immigrant.  I followed the rules.  You may not believe me when I say it because to do so would deny you your favorite argument but this has nothing to do with race of illegal immigrants.  There are many illegal immigrants from Poland around the US and I would treat them the same way.  [Btw, your favorite argument is to call people who protest illegal immigration racists.  You may claim that you have the right to this argument because the protests are a recent phenomena when most of illegal immigrants are "brown" but I would argue that the protests are increasing because of the impact on some communities illegal immigration has and not because of the color of those immigrants (who are illegal, by the way.)]

  Again, I don't know what news outlets you use or how carefully you follow politics but there are many proposals, on both state and federal levels, to grant illegal immigrants the same rights as legal residents so they could attend college.  Given that many (most, all?) are of modest means that would imply a lot of financial aid.

  Some argue that there is a net benefit to our economy, taxes, etc. because of illegal immigration.  First, I don't care if an illegal activity brings benefits.  Second, I'm not convinced.  I hear often that my salad will be more expensive if farmers are forced to pay legal wages.  I buy my salad from a local cooperative so I already pay the full price.

  Krystof

Eric Canon <canonmetals at yahoo.com> wrote:
  Krystof wrote me off list in response to my post.
Here is what he wrote and my response:

--- Krystof Zmudzinski
wrote:

> Each illegal immigrant, by definition, did
> something illegal thus broke the law.

Your slanderous cartoon say "yearning". That's a
smear. They "yearn" to work and provide for their
families. They do not "yearn" to be illegal at
all.

> Besides, I only sent this cartoon, I didn't
> draw it. 

Sort of like Steven and the Hillary smear. We
shouldn't blame you. All you did was send it.
What twisted values you exhibit!

> I didn't go to Cornelius to protest,
> I just happen to be familiar with the web site.
> Somebody asked a question, I was happy to
> help.

Are you saying you are not a supporter of the
minute men and their vigilante approach? I'm
delighted you shared the demented website of this
bigot. I had no idea any of this was going on, at
least to this degree. I make it a point to be as
confrontive as I can be when I see hate and
bigotry rear their evil head. Especially when it
involves a group of people for whom I have so
much admiration and compassion (the Hispanics,
not the bullies).

> And I thought we were not supposed to get
> religion involved in politics. You know,
> because of that theocracy thing.

There is no such rule on Grovenet of which I am
aware. I asked the question of you. You did not
respond. Here it is again:

On which side of the street would we find Jesus?
Do you know anything of His life?

I forgot. You go to church so your kids will go.
You get nothing there for yourself. Simply a
fathers duty, is that not correct? Are your kids
so stupid as not to notice your attitude and
hypocrisy? I doubt it very much. Parents don't
fool kids for very long.

> As for the cartoon, somebody mentioned the
> statue of liberty and its motto. 

The cartoon had just the message you wished to
foist on us. Don't slink away from your deed. Be
a man.

> I would only
> add that there was no free college tuition at
> the time and if Democrats have their way we
> might just get it, together free free,
> Canadian-style (oh, humanity!) health care.

We can only dream. First we need to put Social
Security back in order, and Medicare and
Medicaid.

Do you like the VA? Their hospitals are some of
the best run health organizations in this
country. Efficiently run, cheap in comparison to
the for profit health industry. It would indeed
be wonderful to do as the Canadians do. So much
more convenient to buy our drugs right here
rather than cross the boarder to get a fair
price. And investing in our kids is always a
bargain, isn't it.

> Krystof
> 
> Eric Canon wrote:
> Some are breaking the law. Why do you say
> they
> are "yearning" to break the law? Another
> slander
> Krystof? Why not find a solution that addresses
> everyone's needs?
> 
> On which side of the street would we find
> Jesus?
> Do you know anything of His life?
> 
> --- Krystof Zmudzinski
> wrote:
> 
> > >
> _______________________________________________
> > GroveNet mailing list
> > GroveNet at rdrop.com
> >
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> > 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------
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-- Krystof Z.

Stop global whining
UN is not the answer

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