[Grovenet] illegals

Tue Oct 3 19:35:42 PDT 2006

You are quite right. The USA has a very racist history. For the first 150
years of our existence Americans were extremely intolerant of the aboriginal
Indians, Africans, Asians and pretty much anyone who wasn't of European
stock. We still have a disappointingly large number of people who are openly
racist.

That racist attitude allowed people to make decisions other nations might
never have considered, but I submit that the reason for the decisions they
chose was economic, not simply racist. For example, we imported huge numbers
of Chinese workers in the 1800's to build the railroads because there
weren't enough people available to do the work. The fact that Chinese
weren't considered on the same level of human scale with European stock
allowed them to be abused and even murdered without a second thought. I
don't think they were brought here to let sadist act out their racist
feelings though. I think the reason they were recruited was that their labor
was needed to do the work. And the reason the work needed to be done was
economic. The railroads generated huge profits for their backers and,
ultimately, made the farmers and other businesses across the west more
prosperous.

If it's any consolation, America's racist past isn't unique to us, although
many, if not most, European nations shrugged off those ideas long before we
did.   

Ron D'Eau Claire 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Krystof Zmudzinski
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 3:43 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] illegals

Racist!

Ron D'Eau Claire <rondec at easystreet.com> wrote:   Those are good points,
Tracy. 

The simple fact is that we, as a world of nations, have not ever felt it was
important to help others much beyond the limits of our own self-interest. 

That rather pragmatic approach is the basis of sovereignty: the right and
ability to make our own choices. Unless we're willing to defend what we
think is right, we have no ability to choose what we do: others will do that
for us. To defend ourselves we need wealth, even if it is the expense of
others. And we must guard that wealth. In exchange our government protects
our right to choose and live within reasonable rules of behavior so that we
can individually prosper and provide for ourselves and our families. 

We rebelled against the King of England because a fair percentage of the
people here thought he was no longer protecting our right to choose and live
reasonably. We were simply his vassals to be exploited, not even allowed to
make our own implements to farm the fields and log the forests. Throughout
history people have rebelled against that sort of thing. 

When the USA was founded, that poem on the Statue of Liberty did not exist.
It has never been accepted as a national goal. The long tussle between
local, states and federal rights and responsibilities has revolved around
one question: How do we best protect ourselves from becoming enslaved to a
foreign power again? 

Even our so-called "foreign aid" is given with the expectation that it will
pay the USA dividends in the future, either through increased trade or in
politically-important alliances. There are no "free lunches" from a
government: ours or anyone else's. 

Consider a business - a manufacturing plant like Woodfold Marco here in
Forest Grove. They have employees, "citizens" of the company in a manner of
speaking. But they cannot open their doors to everyone who might want to be
an employee. First they have to have a need and the resources to pay for the
employee. No matter how many people there are out there looking for a job,
they are committing an act of self-destruction and denying their
responsibilities to their current employees if they threw open their doors
to everyone regardless of skill and need. Very shortly the company would
collapse in bankruptcy and everyone would be on the street. 

Countries are no different. For a while in the 19th Century we needed more
people. We had driven the aboriginal tribes of North America into near
extinction and corralled what was left into the "concentration camps" of the
day. (We still call them "reservations".) We wanted people to till the land,
shoot the buffalo, trap the beaver, dig the coal, raise the cattle and fell
the timber. We welcomed all the Europeans into our country who cared to come
and, to a much lesser extent, some other peoples. (I'm ignoring the huge
influx of blacks that were brought here in chains because they were never
considered people by the bulk of the public in those times. It served our
interests and made us more prosperous to have a huge immigration. The slaves
lived the life we were determined to avoid, and we are still determined to
avoid it.) 

That time is over. We no longer welcome such an influx. They are no longer
needed. We've tolerated smaller mass migrations, such as the Cubans,
Vietnamese and a few others as a consequence of our foreign policy. While
many of those individually are prosperous, as a group were not particularly
useful or desirable in terms of improving our national prosperity. Today
it's very difficult for a European, even one with an excellent education, to
get come here to live and work. We don't welcome them. 

Nations have had this problem since antiquity. Rome failed not because of
inner corruption or even lead in the pipes. It failed due to runaway
immigration. The barbarians stormed the gates, wanting the luxury and high
standard of living they saw on the inside. For a while the Roman armies kept
them out, but eventually the defenses were breached. The Empire could not
support them, and it collapsed, just as a company who agreed to hire
everyone who came to the front door regardless of need or skill will soon
collapse.

I like your vision. It would be nice if it was a national vision, but it is
not and it has not been so since the first Europeans settled here. 

Still, I'm reminded of the famous words of George Bernard Shaw: "Some men
see things as they are and say why - I dream things that never were and say
why not."

Ron D'Eau Claire 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Tracy Irwin
Sent: Tuesday, October 03, 2006 11:35 AM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] illegals

I want to add here, that Jesus walked miles in other people's shoes. And he
tried to teach us to do the same. When is the last time you sent your
children out to beg for food, when is the last time your child went to bed
hungry? When is the last time your child slept on the street?At 16 I went to
a South American country where I saw just that, and it had a profound effect
on me. The sheer volume of the stuff that most Americans take for granted
(including, at times, I'm afraid to admit, my own children) is staggering.

These Minute Men really burn my a**. What's next? the 2006 equivalent of
"Irish Need Not Apply" signs???? I want to shout at them that this is NOT a
solution. Racism and Bigotry have NO place here. Can someone tell me what
the quote on the freaking Statue of Liberty is all about? Or was that just a
marketing ploy to make us look good.

Give me your tired, your poor, 
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free, 
The wretched refuse of your teeming shore. 
Send these, the homeless, tempest-tossed, to me: 
I lift my lamp beside the golden door 

I don't care if you are a Democrat or a Republican. Liberal or Conservative,
red white and blue or Pink, gay, straight, religious or atheist. The answer
to this issue is not to draw a line in the sand (or TV
Highway) and shout back and forth across it. C'mon people use your heads to
come to consensus about what is the best way to handle the situation!!!! And
let everone come to the table and have a stake in the decision. it will take
a heck of a lot onger to make a solution. Everyone will give up something,
some will gain. But as my sweetie has said many a time..... 

In the end what kind of world do you want to live in? 

Tracy "grrrr this burns me up" Irwin

_____ 

From: Bob Browning 
Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list 
To: dale.wiley at netzero.com, Forest Grove local interests list

Subject: Re: [Grovenet] illegals
Date: Tue, 03 Oct 2006 10:38:03 -0700
>Take cheap shots at the Dems ? ! ? !
>
>bob "who, me??" browning
>
>Dale Wiley wrote:
>
> >
> >And for the good of the order today.....as the token and vilified
Republican
> >on here....and admitting that the Dem's will win the White House in 
> >2008, what will all you do to pass the time when the Dems are in 
> >power
??.....:)
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>_______________________________________________
>GroveNet mailing list
>GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet

-- Krystof Z.

Stop global whining
UN is not the answer

---------------------------------
Get your email and more, right on the  new Yahoo.com 
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet