[Grovenet] illegals

Mon Oct 9 10:58:06 PDT 2006

David's scenario below is a great example of a totally market-based free
economy such as that promulgated by conservatives and it's a long-term goal
that is typical of the Republican party.

Yes, it can work.

Yes, it may be the ultimate solution.

But there are good reasons why liberals, typically represented by the
Democratic party, don't support doing that. They say it would result in
onerous and unacceptable decreases in the standard of living for most
Americans, most especially lower income Americans. Many people feel that
American workers deserve some protection from the much lower prices
available abroad. They say that just because some people can support a
family on US$500 a month by living 10 to a room on sleeping under a bridge,
it's not acceptable to ask all Americans with whom they would compete for
jobs to accept that standard of living. 

So we have minimum wage standards with most forms of employment, and we
protect legal Americans from illegals who might sneak in to work "under the
table". These are compromises that both conservatives and liberals in the
USA have agreed with. 

What Dave suggests is to do away with that and let the economy go where it
will, no matter how many people fall below the poverty line. Of course, the
first step is to do away with all minimum wage laws or other worker's rights
legislation. Let the worker who will do the most for the least for whatever
reason set the level of compensation for everyone. Forget OSHA, EPA rules
and all those other things that set the USA apart from other, less
expensive, sources of labor and goods.  

I'm a conservative at heart and feel that the more regulations we put in
place that interfere with a free market the more problems we have with the
economy: whether we're dealing in raw materials, finished goods or labor.
But I agree that just such limits are needed because of the disparity in
standards of living around the world. A Mexican or person from central
America might think that $200 is a fortune that can keep their families
going for a year but few Americans would try to live on such an income. But
that's exactly why you see all those storefronts that advertising services
to send US dollars to Mexico and other places. Family members come here and
work, living on the least possible, to support others back "home". 

And it happens at our expense. 

Ideally the world will come to a common standard of living some day that
allows free, unrestricted trade, but I think we're far, far from it now. And
it's not just us. Try to sell a little USA rice in China right now. It's not
an issue of price: the Chinese won't let it in an ANY price. 

Government's first obligation is to protect its citizens and their ability
to thrive. That includes keeping cheap competition under control:  labor or
goods. 

Ron D'Eau Claire 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Cornelius First
Sent: Monday, October 09, 2006 9:22 AM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] illegals

Well said David.

Everyone will need to be at the table.  Everyone will lose a little somthing

to come up with a decision that everyone can live with.  People will learn 
things about their neighbors they never knew.  What it takes to live their 
life.  Why they do what they do in the way they do it.  Some of it will make

sense, some will be difficult to deal with.   Even "Pat" has a reason for 
doing what he is doing.  But if we don't sit down and discuss it, he'll 
never understand that it's not just all about him making money for the 
service he renders.

Like it or not, undocumented workers are here.  You will never succeed in 
strictly enforcing the borders in a way that will keep undocumented workers 
out, even with a wall, without discussion.  even then compliance is going to

be tough.

>From: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>
>Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>Subject: Re: [Grovenet] illegals
>Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2006 23:05:36 -0700
>
>On Oct 2, 2006, at 6:02 PM, JJSAW at aol.com wrote:
> > A lady wrote the best letter in  the Editorials (obviously not the
> > NT) in ages!! It explains things better than  all the baloney you 
> > hear on TV. ... I BREAK INTO YOUR HOUSE..
>
>I keep coming back to this description because it just seems 
>incomplete.  So, keep everything that you said and fill in some blanks.
>
>You don't live alone, you share the house with room mates.  Everyone 
>splits the expenses  for rent, utilities, and household chores 
>according to an agreed formula.  The house rules specify that the whole 
>household gets to vote on new members.
>
>One of your room mates, "Pat", keeps bringing "friends" over for the 
>night or longer.  It turns out that Pat is taking enough money from the 
>visitors to cover Pat's share of the rent, and allows other visitors to 
>do Pat's share of house work in exchange for a place to stay in your 
>house.
>
>I am hungry and cold.  When we meet on the street, Pat describes the 
>situation, tells me how to get into the house and what to do when I get 
>there.
>
>So I go to work for Pat and ...
>
> > ... I break into your house. Let's say that when you discover me in  
> > your house, you insist that I leave. But I say, "I've made all the 
> > beds and  washed the dishes and did the laundry and swept the 
> > floors; I've done all the  things you don't like to do. I'm hard- 
> > working and honest (except for when I  broke into your house). 
> > According to the protesters, not only must you let me stay, you must 
> > add me  to your family's insurance plan, educate my kids, and 
> > provide other benefits  to me and to my family (my husband will do 
> > your yard work because he too is  hard-working and honest, except 
> > for that breaking-in part). If you try to call  the police or force 
> > me out, I will call my friends who will picket your house  carrying 
> > signs that proclaim my right to be there. It's only fair, after all, 
> > because you have a nicer house than I do, and I'm  just trying to 
> > better myself. I'm a hard-working and honest, person, except  for 
> > ... well, you know. And what a deal it is for me!! I live in your 
> > house, contributing only a  fraction of the cost of my keep, and 
> > there is nothing you can do about  it without being accused of 
> > selfishness, prejudice and being an  anti-housebreaker. Oh yeah, I 
> > want you to learn my language so you  can communicate with me.
>
>Should you talk to Pat?
>
>David
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