[Grovenet] A heckuva job! ! ! ! ! !

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

It sounds to me like a long stretch to associate honesty with telling the
truth with being "good". 

How does my statement that being honest means doing the right thing even if
no one is looking differ from, as you say, "telling the truth"? 

Truth is a sharp sword that can do terrible damage. For some the idea of
"telling the truth" means volunteering every hurtful thing we might know
about someone simply because we believe it is correct. 

It is not necessary to lie when choosing not to share such a "truth".

In my reading most of the "law-givers" you cited spoke more about bad than
good, leaving the impression that if one wasn't bad one was, by default,
good. Or, in other words, we are born good but learn "bad" and spend the
rest of our lives learning how to approach being "good" again. 

That always sounded right to me and squared with my experience. 

And I am reminded that one of my favorite teachers, the Dali Lama, observed
that most of us take the idea of life and religion far too seriously.

Ron D'Eau Claire

  

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of David Morelli
Sent: Monday, April 16, 2007 10:21 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] A heckuva job! ! ! ! ! !



On Apr 14, 2007, at 8:13 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:

> ... In my experience the idea that "human beings are not basically
> honest" is false. I don't believe babies are born crooks. I have  
> been blessed to know people who are honest. I strive to emulate  
> that ideal.
>
> Being honest means doing the right thing even if we think no one is
> looking.  That's because someone is looking - always. Ourselves if  
> you don't believe in God. The person who puts garbage into his  
> life, into his soul, has to live with garbage. Pretty soon the  
> stink permeates the individual and he begins to think the whole  
> world smells like that.

Ron,

I must disagree with some of your premise.

I would place "honesty" into the arena of telling the truth, both to  
others and to ourselves.  I would see it as one aspect of "being  
good", but being good is a larger set of attributes.  So a good  
person would do the right thing even when no one is looking.  And an  
honest person would tell the truth even when there is no chance of  
getting exposed, but a good person would do more than tell the truth  
( being honest ), they would also act in accord with what is right in  
other situations as well.  When a person is dishonest that is one  
sign that they are less than a fully good person, and it is a sign  
that we may expect other displays of not-good behavior (theft,  
violence, bigotry, etc. )

I do not believe that people are born "good" or "bad".  While I was  
raised with the concept of absolute right and wrong, and the moral  
imperative to "do right and avoid evil", I have observed that the  
standards of good and right vary between people and cultures.

There have been many famous "law-givers" over history, Hammaribi,  
Moses, Hillel, Jesus, Paul, Mohammed, Krishna, Buddha, Confucius, Lao  
Tsu, Adam Smith, Joseph Smith, Bahalula, Karl Marx, etc. etc.  In  
most cases they defined "good" and provided the laws that deliver  
good to their followers. The "good" varies between the messages.  It  
is anything but absolute.  We don't agree on the basic meaning of  
good.  If there is an absolute, we do not appear to have access to  
irrefutable definitions of the standard.

I would say that "good" is defined within a culture.  Either it comes  
from God, or nature, or logic, or whatever.  People act within the  
culture that they are raised, and it is difficult to transition  
between cultures.  Within our world we have  many cultures that  
practice strict loyalty to the group above any concept of honesty to  
outsiders.  As a survival tactic, loyalty to the group and  
subservience to the leaders will outweigh honesty to outsiders most  
times.  So, I would suggest that they are more ingrained in human  
nature than honesty.

We just finished celebrating the feast of the Easter Bunny, and  
before that the celebration of the coming of Santa Claus.  In both  
cases children will be rewarded for their "faith".  And if they know  
otherwise, they are wise enough to pretend to have faith to keep the  
rewards coming.  We reward our children for accepting and supporting  
stories that they doubt or disbelieve.  It is fun and done for good  
motives, and we continue to practice it to some degree.  However, we  
should recognize our actions for what they are.

I can imagine that some people may claim that a certain amount of  
deception is required to keep a social organization functioning, and  
some amount of self deception is required so that we can accept our  
selves.  I may not accept those premises, but I observe that a lot of  
people appear to accept them.

David


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