[Grovenet] As the spin churns . . .

[Ron D'Eau Claire]

You make some good points about President Bush, Katie, but President Bush is
not the one calling for us to leave Iraq. The voters of that It's enough of
the US population that our Congress is almost stampeding to pull our troops
out of there, regardless of the long-term consequences, because the
immediate consequences they perceive is that they'll lose the next election
if they don't.

President Bush was a "boss" only as long as Congress gave him that power in
time of a perceived national emergency with the support of the American
people. That power is now rescinded. 

The President has a lot to account for in his administration, but leaving
Iraq now isn't one of them. Indeed, the President has less to account for
than many people claim. After all, the voters of America chose him again in
the last Presidential election. The American voter had little to say about
going into Iraq, but how we leave is our choice, a choice with far-ranging
consequences, just as JFK's mistakes with Cuba and her allies have produced
consequences that we must deal with every day, even now.

America is a good country but we have no perfect answers. There's no magic
in our system of government that automatically makes our decisions right for
us or for the world. Like most other countries, we're feeling our way along
in a wilderness trying to do the best we can. We look out for the interests
of our neighbors to the extent it protects our self-interests. As a nation
we're uncertain, often afraid and, thankfully, we do things to be proud of
at times. I had hoped that taking responsibility for Iraq would be one of
those. It's not likely. We're not secure enough or mature enough as a nation
to do that. We still believe that "might makes right." That makes us
incapable of doing anything that suggests otherwise. 

We will learn better, if we survive. Our biggest challenge today is that we
have such an awful ability to wreak havoc on our neighbors that we are
creating enemies such as we've never faced before. Because we have the power
to intimidate and destroy other nations there are those in the world who are
committed to doing whatever it takes to match that awful power. Their goal
is to be able to wreak as much havoc on us as we might on them. Once they
achieve that power we have no control over how or when they might choose use
it. 9/11 was just the first little feint by showing us that we are not safe;
it was the opening jab of a fight that will last until our civilization is
destroyed, unless we find a way to stop it. 

As other groups become more powerful we will have to face the same fears,
dangers and uncertainty the rest of the world sees now in an often angry,
unpredictable United States of America. 

Ron D'Eau Claire 



-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of allnutt
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 10:40 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As the spin churns . . .


Declare a victory and get out.....

It can be viewed in various ways, but let me say this first.
I disagree with you about how many Americans care or feel a sense of 
responsibility about what is going on in Iraq.  Instead of the number being 
'a few' I think it is more accurate to say 'a lot'.
And for those who do care about innocent life and who do think that the 
estimated hundreds of thousands of civilian Iraqis killed is a significant 
number the question becomes how do we get this administration to care and 
take some responsibility?  Not an easy task by any means.

Have you ever had a boss who only liked ideas when he thought they were his 
own? Or who would only act if he would get 'credit' for the good parts but 
no blame for the bad parts?  That is what our current leader is like. He 
only talks about mistakes in the abstract, not as if there is any reality to

them.  "IF mistakes were made, I take responsibility for them."  This is 
classic for the kind of guy who feels compelled to ACT like a leader but who

won't really take responsibility.  Mistakes are ultimately the commanders 
fault but only if they happen.  He would have been a stronger leader to say,

'since obviously mistakes were made, I take responsibility...' but of course

he prefers to think that the 'if' is still in operation.

Declaring victory and getting out.  As we have seen in the last two days, 
the Brits are doing just that and Cheney is agreeing. So much agreement that

the Brits leaving is a good sign in Cheney's eyes. Proof that victory can be

declared. (Or at least it is important to spin it that way.)

When you have the kind of boss who only responds to declaring victory, then 
it is rational for people to declare victory in spite of any reality. 
Things have to be framed for the boss to view it as his own idea and his own

glory to leave.  That is what faces the country right now and any talk of 
reality does absolutely no good.
Regardless of what you want to have happen in Iraq (for us to stay or for us

to go or something in between) in order for George to listen, you have to 
pat him on the back and tell him how wonderful he is doing and slip in the 
idea of what to do next.  When he is convinced he will get a pat on the back

for what ever he does then he will do it.

Flattery and insincerity go a long way in dealing with people like Bush. 
Tell him he is wonderful for declaring victory and switching the troops to a

non combat role (training or intelligence or focused on Al Qaeda or whatever

would be helpful to winding it down) and he will probably do it.  Just don't

tell him about any mistakes.
People need to lie through their teeth and tell him he has his victory and 
lie some more to tell him how wonderful he is, then he will do what is 
necessary.
Tony Blair has always had a better handle on what was happening in Iraq and 
he has given us a golden opportunity to expand on the very rational idea of 
just declaring victory and getting out.

We can then work through the UN or humanitarian groups to rebuild Iraq so we

fulfill our responsibility for the havoc we have created.

Katie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 8:49 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] As the spin churns . . .


> "Declare a victory and get out. "
>
> And that's not just an empty statement in the eyes of many.
>
> I think there are four broad beliefs about the Iraqi war. Obviously
> some people ascribe to some combination of all four, others focus on 
> just one.
>
> 1) The USA has shown that it can "kick a$$ anywhere and any time we
> want!" For those folks it is a victory. We did it. We destroyed a 
> government and a nation, defeating its army. We won. Now we can go 
> home and leave the country
> to the thugs and vandals who are jockeying for control. It's of no
> consequence to us.
>
> 2) The USA protected itself from an imminent attack with Saddam's WMD.
> It doesn't really matter that they weren't found. They *could* have 
> been there. They *could* have been moved. So it was enough that we 
> invaded to ensure the
> attack against us would not occur.
>
> 3) Iraq was somehow responsible for the 9/11 attack, and it is right
> and proper for people to seek vengeance against our attackers. 
> (Usually cloaked in the nice phrase: bring them to 'justice').
>
> 4) We should not have attacked at all. Our military should only be
> used to defend us after we've been attacked. As tragic as a surprise 
> attack like we experienced at Pearl Harbor in 1941, we should never 
> launch a preemptive attack on another nation.
>
> We have satisfied three of the four of these. The fourth, those who
> said
> we
> should not launch preemptive attacks, have been shouted down again and 
> again
> over the years. Iraq was no exception.
>
> Notice that missing here is anything about "bringing democracy to
> Iraq" or any acknowledgement of a responsibility to leave Iraq a 
> better place to live than it was under Saddam. As Joy pointed out, the 
> President did not specifically say we'd do those things. There's no 
> legal contract people like
> me can enforce. It appears that relatively few Americans care or feel any
> sense of responsibility.
>
> So, I think you're right Alan. We'll leave and we'll smugly declare it
> a victory. After all, in time the region that is Iraq may again be a 
> prosperous and beautiful place. But that wouldn't be the result of 
> hard work in the part of those "rag heads". Obviously it is our gift 
> to them by deposing Saddam. And if it doesn't happen, obviously it was 
> because those "rag heads" squandered the opportunity we gave them.
>
> Clearly it's a "win-win" for America.
>
> Ron D'Eau Claire
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]
> On Behalf Of Allen Warren
> Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 11:43 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: [Grovenet] As the spin churns . . .
>
>
> With the British announcement today they're starting the process of 
> reducing troops in Iraq, It looks like the Bush Administration is 
> explaining the impending British troop reductions by taking the 
> opportunity to use the advice of the late Senator George Aiken to both 
> Presidents Johnson and Nixon
> (R-Vt) during the Vietnam era: Declare a victory and get out.
>
> Vice President Cheney, in an interview in Tokyo said Britain's plans
> to withdraw about 1,600 troops from Iraq - while the United States 
> adds more troops - was a positive step. "I look at it and see it is 
> actually an affirmation that there are parts of Iraq where things are 
> going pretty well," the vice president said.
>
> As for Cheney's assertion that the partial British pullout is a sign
> that things are going well in Iraq, Speaker Pelosi said: "If it's 
> going so well, we'd like to withdraw our troops as well."
>
> I'm sure Cheney will probably answer back that things in the South
> where
> the
> British are stationed are going very, very well but of course where our
> American troops are stationed things aren't nearly as positive.
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
>
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