[Grovenet] Habla English?

Sun Jan 14 20:03:07 PST 2007

Okay, I plead guilty to fuzziness. I don't know where the exact boundaries
on spending to support non-English speaking people should be. I can see
benefits for us all if immigrants are assimilated into our society and
culture as easily and quickly as possible. I think learning English is a
critical part of that assimilation process. 

But I stop short of demanding that everyone who would live here *must* be
fluent or at least competent in English. That's a personal judgment based on
what I see happening in other countries. There are some who say we should
require an English competency test before issuing a green card or, at the
least, allowing them to become citizens. I can understand that feeling and I
wouldn't object to such a rule even if I would not be the first to promote
it. 

I put emphasis on children of school age because a very fast clock is
"ticking" for them. I believe that a year of school that is missed for any
reason is harder to recover than a year for an adult. And children who
immigrate here must learn a lot more than readin' writin' and 'rithmatic.
They have to become part of the culture. They need to understand and
interact with the kids who have lived here all their lives. That requires
English. 

The program Deena described sounds very reasonable for a town meeting. 

If I had to find a specific place where I'd "draw the line" on language, it
would be that no one has the right to demand that someone be available to
communicate with them in anything other than English. If someone chooses not
to learn English, they are choosing to make themselves ineligible for many
of the privileges, benefits and conveniences of our society. Indeed, they
may be putting themselves at some risk if they had an emergency and were
unable to communicate.

On the other hand, I think it serves us all well if we invest a reasonable
amount of time and money in helping immigrants learn English if they have
the inclination to do so. 

Ron D'Eau Claire 

-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of allnutt
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 5:45 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?

I know you asked why the announcement was sent out in Spanish (to a town 
meeting - not to schools).
I was just trying to get clarification on your earlier comment that you 
would support 'some' services that were targeted at getting residents (legal

ones) some help in assimilating the language that they would need to fully 
participate. That's why I asked the question with legal immigrants in mind 
as well.

>From this answer you seem to be saying that the primary help should be
directed at school age children.  But you don't seem to exclude the 
possibility of helping adults in a non school setting.
 Then you restated that  "At the very least, we should not spend public
> money accommodating those who do not speak English beyond programs to 
> provide opportunities to help them learn English..."

Do you think that an opportunity to learn English is a town meeting with a 
translator? What if unbeknownst to either you or me, the translator was part

of a program to specifically help legal residents learn english?  Or what if

it was free and didn't involve public money? (Deena's post suggested that is

a possibility too - the translator was volunteer and the equipment may have 
been borrowed.)

I am not disagreeing with you that we need a common language and that it 
should be English. We are only trying to figure out where the boundaries are

between helping legitimate citizens with legitimate right to access to their

local government and those that go overboard or are not sufficiently cost 
effective.

It is very hard to see where the line is between having english under attack

by needs of spanish speakers and reasonable accomodation for legitimate 
immigrants who are in the process of learning english. (Arnold 
Schwarzenagger said it took him 5-7 years to really learn to understand it).

If we have a constant stream of legal immigrants who need help learning the 
language over a 5-7 year period then the stream of legitimate support also 
seems to be constant.   It is not hard to understand why people feel such a 
constant stream of need feels like an assault.  It is like caring for an 
invalid - no breaks and no long term improvement in sight.

In last year's campaign I met a very liberal campaign worker who was a 
fairly left leaning leftie except when it came to the issue of speaking 
Spanish.  This person had been turned down for several jobs because they 
were not bilingual.  Speaking only english was a detriment in the private 
sector because businesses wanted workers who could help all the customers 
they were likely to come in contact with.  (This was true across a variety 
of stores and service industries.)
If somebody had suggested a law requiring only English at businesses in 
Oregon they would have a very willing campaigner the frustration was so 
high.

If businesses are jumping on board the bilingual train, then all the voices 
who cry out for government to be run like a business might be part of what 
is driving this as well.

Katie

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?

> Katie, I didn't refer to the status of the immigrants, legal or 
> illegal. Those comments were from others.
>
> I asked several questions about WHY the announcement about the town
> meeting
> was sent out in Spanish, that's all.
>
> My comment you quoted below was with LEGAL immigrants specifically in
> mind.
> I believe we need a "national language". It is, by default, English, but
> that is under attack with greater and greater demands for equal time for
> other languages, most notably Spanish.
>
> As I said, my position is that we should help immigrants become
> assimilated
> into the American culture, and that includes speaking English. I'll stop
> short of making competency in English a requirement for residency, but
> perhaps I could be convinced that might be a good idea.
>
> I think competency in English should be a requirement for every 
> citizen, native born or immigrated. At the very least, we should not 
> spend public money accommodating those who do not speak English beyond 
> programs to provide opportunities to help them learn English, and I'd 
> put the primary focus there on aid to school-age children so they can 
> be integrated into English-speaking classrooms as quickly as possible.
>
> Ron D'Eau Claire
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] 
> On Behalf Of allnutt
> Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 12:49 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
>
>
> Rob,
> If the translator at the city meeting was for the sole purpose of 
> helping legitimate immigrants learn English  would you have a problem 
> with the translator being there?
>
> Katie
> PS Even if it helped with other concerns as a byproduct?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 9:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
>
>
>>
>> But I will always object to spending taxpayer dollars to provide 
>> Spanish-speaking facilities with the sole exceptions of resources to 
>> help immigrants learn English and a reasonable multi-lingual 
>> capability to render assistance in emergencies.
>>
>> Ron D'Eau Claire
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
> 

_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet