[Grovenet] Habla ingles?
Ron D'Eau Claire
rondec at easystreet.com
Mon Jan 15 20:16:45 PST 2007
An interesting idea, Ron.
I suspect it has more to do with the fact that English is pretty much the
international language of trade. Over the years I've worked with companies
in probably 50 different nations including most of the European Union and
several in the Middle East and Asia. Always, the representatives were fluent
in English.
The exceptions were South America! In Brazil they have laws requiring
certain documents used in business, including sales literature such as
brochures and ads, to be in Portuguese. In much of the rest of South America
it's Spanish or nothing! One country I've not done work with is Mexico. I
have a friend who works as a consultant to international banks who often
conducts seminars in Mexico City. He said that, since he does not speak
Spanish, when he conducts a seminar or meets with bankers in Mexico he
always has a translator along. They seldom speak any English.
Most countries throughout Asia and Europe that I've dealt with teach English
to all kids from the first years in school. Many end up learning three or
more languages, but English and their native language seem to be the first
two in most cases.
I have the feeling that Mexican kids do not learn English in school. Anyone
know for sure?
I agree with Mr. Geffen: we are figments of our own imaginations. I have a
sign above my desk: "Believing is Seeing". What we believe to be true is
what we will find when we seek "truth".
Ron D'Eau Claire
-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Ron Davison
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 12:50 PM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla ingles?
I wonder if anyone has ever investigated the correlation between trade
deficits and language purity. Could it be that the "There is trilingual,
bilingual, and American" quip somehow explains why we buy more than we sell
on world markets?
If I want to sell to you, I'll learn your language and culture. If I want to
buy from you, I'll expect you to learn mine. Here in the US we often see
foreign language and foreign culture as an impediment to productivity
instead of seeing it as a door to foreign sales. That might explain, in
part, how we manage to sustain such huge trade deficits.
Ron Davison
R World - A weblog About Religion, Politics, Finance & Business
"I think we are all figments of our own imagination. We invent ourselves.
We have a vision of ourselves and its takes us where it will take us. There
may be a normal course for doing ordinary things, but there's no normal
course for doing extraordinary things. Very often your destiny is beyond
your ability to imagine it."
- David Geffen, a college dropout now worth $4.4 billion
-----Original Message-----
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Behalf Of grovenet-request at rdrop.com
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 12:00 PM
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Subject: GroveNet Digest, Vol 26, Issue 15
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Today's Topics:
1. Re: Habla English? (allnutt)
2. Re: Habla English? (allnutt)
3. Re: Habla English? (Ron D'Eau Claire)
4. Re: Habla English? (Ron D'Eau Claire)
5. Re: Habla English? (Vickie Madeoneup)
6. Re: Habla English? (Ed Davie)
7. Re: Habla English? (Ron D'Eau Claire)
8. Local Merchants - Ace - Wins again (David Morelli)
9. Re: Habla English? (Deena)
10. Re: Habla English? (Ron D'Eau Claire)
11. Re: Habla English? (allnutt)
12. Re: Local Merchants - Ace - Wins again (Steven)
13. Re: Habla English? (Steven)
14. Re: Habla English? (Ron D'Eau Claire)
15. Re: Local Merchants - Ace - Wins again (Ron D'Eau Claire)
16. Re: Local Merchants - Ace - Wins again (David Morelli)
17. Re: Habla English? (David Morelli)
18. Re: Habla English? (David Morelli)
19. Trunk Monkeys, anyone? (Meredith Bliss)
20. Re: Habla English? (Dale Wiley)
21. Re: Habla English? (Meredith Bliss)
22. Re: Habla English? (Ron D'Eau Claire)
23. Re: Habla English? (Ron D'Eau Claire)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 12:49:02 -0800
From: "allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <003601c7381d$6d94e4f0$6501a8c0 at laptop1K>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
Rob,
If the translator at the city meeting was for the sole purpose of helping
legitimate immigrants learn English would you have a problem with the
translator being there?
Katie
PS Even if it helped with other concerns as a byproduct?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
>
> But I will always object to spending taxpayer dollars to provide
> Spanish-speaking facilities with the sole exceptions of resources to
> help immigrants learn English and a reasonable multi-lingual
> capability to render assistance in emergencies.
>
> Ron D'Eau Claire
>
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 13:11:21 -0800
From: "allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: <dale.wiley at netzero.com>, "Forest Grove local interests list"
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <003c01c73820$8b63c930$6501a8c0 at laptop1K>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
I know that you were only suggesting using kids for limited translation
purposes but
I had a really good chuckle at the idea of letting bilingual children be the
communication go betweens for non English speaking parents. Many times I
have asked my children (who have always been English speakers)
get a piece of information from a teacher or other adult, they often come
home with an answer in English that makes no sense to me.
When I go to the teacher/adult and get the information myself we chalk up
the misunderstanding to the gap between the way a teen view the world/school
system and the way an adult views the world/school system. For my recent
experiences it is usually just the subtlety between 'must' and 'should' and
how the two words are truly not interchangeable.
My heart goes out to those who are relying on their 8 yr olds to translate.
And I agree with you Dale. If the district is required to effectively
communicate with the Parents (a la NCLB or another mandated program) then
they need to communicate it to all parents in the most cost effective way
possible. It is a lot cheaper to write something in English on one side,
and Spanish on the other and send them all at once than to try to do
separate mailings. And the alternative of writing it in English only and
then taking the consequences of not meeting your NCLB goals can be quite
expensive for a district for many many years.
Katie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Wiley" <dale.wiley at netzero.com>
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
> 38.7 % District wide at fall enrollment.
>
> This is a fast changing demographic. At various school functions I
> attend each year, the percentage of Espanol'only speakers is dropping,
> as there are a lot of second generation parents now, that are American
> educated and very
> bilingual.
>
> There is always going to be a number of households where the parents
> are
> not
> FLUENT, in English, but the children are and they can translate for the
> parents in various situations. Dispensing information to these non English
> speaking parents is as important as to the English speaking parents, and I
> would imagine the District is more concerned with getting the message
> across
> to all PARENTS.
>
> Espanol' translations are avaliable at virtually all District
> functions,
> and
> upon request to the District office. It seems to me that if you have a
> demographic of 38%, that does not indicate that all 38% are non English
> speaking, just that is the level of Hispanic enrollment in the District.
>
> Considering the circumstances that make these non English speaking
> parents that, by virtue of their age and education levels, I see no
> reason not to communicate with them in the best way possible. After
> all, I venture to say that the majority of them are homeowners or
> renters, and therefore pay taxes
> supporting the District.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Allen Warren
> Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 4:52 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
>
>
> For several years (I think it's been at least that long) our sons'
> mailings
> from FG schools have english on one side and spanish on the other. And
> after attending numerous school concerts, honor roll assemblies and other
> school functions I understand why the bi-lingual papers: I would estimate
> at
> a minimum the hispanic student population is 35%. And I will guess that
> percentage is higher in the Cornelius elementary school system. It's easy
> to see how much the Hispanic population has grown in WA county.
>
> Ron, I think it's a stretch to believe the annual Community Meeting
> will
> be
> held as Spanish being the primary language. At the school functions there
> are translators but those are mainly for the parents as most students are
> bi-lingual.
>
> So what's the problem?
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Ron D'Eau Claire <rondec at easystreet.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 4:12:19 PM
> Subject: [Grovenet] Habla English?
>
>
> I notice in the current City bill an Invitation to the Annual
> Community Meeting. The invitation is in Spanish on one side.
>
> Is that so our non-English, Spanish speaking citizens will know to
> attend?
>
> So, will everything be translated for them at the meeting, or will the
> meeting be held in Spanish?
>
> If so, why?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
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>
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 14:06:26 -0800
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <000101c73828$3dce0e30$6401a8c0 at RONPORTABLE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Katie, I didn't refer to the status of the immigrants, legal or illegal.
Those comments were from others.
I asked several questions about WHY the announcement about the town meeting
was sent out in Spanish, that's all.
My comment you quoted below was with LEGAL immigrants specifically in mind.
I believe we need a "national language". It is, by default, English, but
that is under attack with greater and greater demands for equal time for
other languages, most notably Spanish.
As I said, my position is that we should help immigrants become assimilated
into the American culture, and that includes speaking English. I'll stop
short of making competency in English a requirement for residency, but
perhaps I could be convinced that might be a good idea.
I think competency in English should be a requirement for every citizen,
native born or immigrated. At the very least, we should not spend public
money accommodating those who do not speak English beyond programs to
provide opportunities to help them learn English, and I'd put the primary
focus there on aid to school-age children so they can be integrated into
English-speaking classrooms as quickly as possible.
Ron D'Eau Claire
-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of allnutt
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 12:49 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
Rob,
If the translator at the city meeting was for the sole purpose of helping
legitimate immigrants learn English would you have a problem with the
translator being there?
Katie
PS Even if it helped with other concerns as a byproduct?
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 9:30 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
>
> But I will always object to spending taxpayer dollars to provide
> Spanish-speaking facilities with the sole exceptions of resources to
> help immigrants learn English and a reasonable multi-lingual
> capability to render assistance in emergencies.
>
> Ron D'Eau Claire
>
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 14:06:26 -0800
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <000001c73828$3cb34f60$6401a8c0 at RONPORTABLE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
As a parent, I have no argument with your observations about the
communications issues, Katie! It's not just the kid's fault either. A
woefully large number of adults never learned to express themselves clearly
either, including many who draft notes in schools(1).
And I have no argument with sending important notices home in the native
language of the parents, if the school is prepared to treat all people
fairly and equally: Chinese, Vietnamese, Italian, Russian, Japanese, French,
German, etc., etc. Or does the school district think Spanish-speaking
parents deserve some special elevated treatment over other immigrants?
I hope not. By their sheer numbers, I'd expect Spanish-speaking people to
have far more resources available in the form of friends and neighbors who
can translate for the (hopefully) few non-English-speaking than, say, a
German speaking person who lives here.
Just remember, my original question had *nothing* to do with schools. I
asked why a bi-lingual Town Meeting announcement was sent out and whether
that meant the meeting would accommodate non-English-speaking people.
Ron D'Eau Claire
(1) A recent news story about a school notice was enough to put any sane
person ROTFL. It was a true story of a grade school principal who sent this
announcement home with the kids:
"Several mouse balls have been found loose in the school. Would everyone
please carefully check your mice for missing balls. If any of your mice are
missing their balls, please notify me at once."
-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of allnutt
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 1:11 PM
To: dale.wiley at netzero.com; Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
I know that you were only suggesting using kids for limited translation
purposes but
I had a really good chuckle at the idea of letting bilingual children be the
communication go betweens for non English speaking parents. Many times I
have asked my children (who have always been English speakers)
get a piece of information from a teacher or other adult, they often come
home with an answer in English that makes no sense to me.
When I go to the teacher/adult and get the information myself we chalk up
the misunderstanding to the gap between the way a teen view the world/school
system and the way an adult views the world/school system. For my recent
experiences it is usually just the subtlety between 'must' and 'should' and
how the two words are truly not interchangeable.
My heart goes out to those who are relying on their 8 yr olds to translate.
And I agree with you Dale. If the district is required to effectively
communicate with the Parents (a la NCLB or another mandated program) then
they need to communicate it to all parents in the most cost effective way
possible. It is a lot cheaper to write something in English on one side,
and Spanish on the other and send them all at once than to try to do
separate mailings. And the alternative of writing it in English only and
then taking the consequences of not meeting your NCLB goals can be quite
expensive for a district for many many years.
Katie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Wiley" <dale.wiley at netzero.com>
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 9:36 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
> 38.7 % District wide at fall enrollment.
>
> This is a fast changing demographic. At various school functions I
> attend each year, the percentage of Espanol'only speakers is dropping,
> as there are a lot of second generation parents now, that are American
> educated and very
> bilingual.
>
> There is always going to be a number of households where the parents
> are
> not
> FLUENT, in English, but the children are and they can translate for the
> parents in various situations. Dispensing information to these non English
> speaking parents is as important as to the English speaking parents, and I
> would imagine the District is more concerned with getting the message
> across
> to all PARENTS.
>
> Espanol' translations are avaliable at virtually all District
> functions,
> and
> upon request to the District office. It seems to me that if you have a
> demographic of 38%, that does not indicate that all 38% are non English
> speaking, just that is the level of Hispanic enrollment in the District.
>
> Considering the circumstances that make these non English speaking
> parents that, by virtue of their age and education levels, I see no
> reason not to communicate with them in the best way possible. After
> all, I venture to say that the majority of them are homeowners or
> renters, and therefore pay taxes
> supporting the District.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of Allen Warren
> Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 4:52 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
>
>
> For several years (I think it's been at least that long) our sons'
> mailings
> from FG schools have english on one side and spanish on the other. And
> after attending numerous school concerts, honor roll assemblies and other
> school functions I understand why the bi-lingual papers: I would estimate
> at
> a minimum the hispanic student population is 35%. And I will guess that
> percentage is higher in the Cornelius elementary school system. It's easy
> to see how much the Hispanic population has grown in WA county.
>
> Ron, I think it's a stretch to believe the annual Community Meeting
> will
> be
> held as Spanish being the primary language. At the school functions there
> are translators but those are mainly for the parents as most students are
> bi-lingual.
>
> So what's the problem?
>
> Allen Warren
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Ron D'Eau Claire <rondec at easystreet.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 4:12:19 PM
> Subject: [Grovenet] Habla English?
>
>
> I notice in the current City bill an Invitation to the Annual
> Community Meeting. The invitation is in Spanish on one side.
>
> Is that so our non-English, Spanish speaking citizens will know to
> attend?
>
> So, will everything be translated for them at the meeting, or will the
> meeting be held in Spanish?
>
> If so, why?
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
> ________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo! Mail beta.
> http://new.mail.yahoo.com
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 14:24:43 -0800 (PST)
From: Vickie Madeoneup <whatsupy2k at yahoo.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <262980.4814.qm at web35609.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
This is an interesting subject that I have wondered about myself.
The first thing I noticed a few years ago was the ATM machines giving
English or Spanish choices.
Now I see billboards in the local area that are Spanish only.
There is an employee at Tom McCall that translates all of the parent
information that goes hoime into Spanish, plus she makes the attendance
calls for Spanish speaking parents, but .... what would we do if it was
Japanese or Russian?
I too have been curious about that dilemma, and it may already exist and I
don't know it.
btw Recently we had a gang related parent meeting that was in Spanish
with English interpretations. that seemed odd to me at first but then it
was explained to me that the machines that interpret are spendy and that
because of a limited supply it was easier to translate into English instead
of trying to procure enough machines to translate into Spanish.
Good subject as translating does add an expense to the schools but on the
flip side it's important for all parents to be informed.
Vickie
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------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 14:36:20 -0800
From: "Ed Davie" <edavie at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <009b01c7382c$6e6fddd0$2f01a8c0 at EDavie>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
Oops!
----- Original Message -----
From: Carol Morgan
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 12:22 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
I wish to send you the payment (for the 6th time
at least). Should I send it via paypal or via
your snail mail addres (for the sixth time).
Please don't email by asking what I want to do,
since I have told you this many times including
the two emails which you at first denied the
existence of and then denied the significance of.
Just tell me (PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE) how
to send payment (including what email address to
use) and I will. PLEASE do not ask me what I want
to do since I will just have to mail you back
saying the same exact thing, which aparently makes
you angry. You shouldn't have started a war over
2 dollars and said innacurate and inflammatory
things if you didn't want me to respond to them.
But the core communication, what I wish to do, has
been the same for me. You are the one who will
not say paypal or snail mail. I wish I knew why
that was, but all I can do is continue to ask.
So, again crystal clear: PLEASE?
1. Paypal or no paypal
2. If yes paypal give me the email adress
3. If no paypal say 'no paypal'
4. Do not ask me what I want to do. If you
don't know this, please read any of the previous
emails I have sent which all say that I wish to
send you payment via paypal as soon as possible
but if that is not possible I will put a check in
the mail. I guess it would be tuesday since the
holiday is Monday. So I will again argue for
paypal because I am offering to pay you at least 2
dollars (but you can name your price) for your
inconvenience and you will get the payment nearly
a week earlier. But you have to tell me what to
do!
If you don't want any further defense of what I
have done or said please: 1. Do not make
inaccurate statements about whether I have or have
not contacted you within the period of the auction
in which I have to defend myself by first giving
my word that I contacted you and apparently when
that was not good enough by giving proof that I
contacted you and finaly by arguing that indeed
those emails were not insignificant as you say
because not having contacted you about my
intentions is the only grounds by which a seller
would issue an unpaid bidder strike legitimately
within the timeline that you did. Normally it is
the case that a seller would not need to do this
if he had word that the payment was late and the
reason for that and the intention to pay. It is
ridiculous to issue an unpaid bidder strike when I
just asked you for your address to send the
payment and you just gave it. And that assurance
against the backdrop of great feedback that gave
you NO REASON TO DOUBT ME. 2. Do not make
inaccurate statements about the timeine by which
you yourself acted to respond to me that I again
have to argue by my word and then by proof when
you again don't believe me for some unknown
reason. If you don't know what I am talking about
I can prove that you did this several times, but I
think the pattern here is that my word should be
good enough. 3. Do not make inflammatory and
insulting statements about the illness that I had
that was partly the reason for my delay (the other
was your own inept ability to answer my questions
that I posed you in emails that apparently you
responded to but did not see) 4. Absolutely do
not go back on your word that you will remove the
strike as soon as you can. And do not go back on
your word to leave my feedback alone. You have
already added a considerable amount of stress to
a terrible holiday season. By your own choosing.
Again, you declared war over a couple of bucks and
then didn't like it when I defended my self. What
should I have done exacty, just said, oh, gee
you're right, I didn't contact you, and you are
right, I should ahve been sending you additional,
redundant emails even when I was a raving lunatic
during my seizures. The nerve of me!
This would be funny if it weren't so horribly
frustrating.
------ Original Message ------
Received: 06:48 PM PST, 01/13/2007
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
To: Forest Grove local interests list
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
A large percentage of them are here illegally.
Much larger than our
English speaking illegal population.
Doesn't that bother you?
Allen Warren wrote:
>
> So what's the problem?
>
> Allen Warren
>
> ----- Original Message ----
> From: Ron D'Eau Claire <rondec at easystreet.com>
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2007 4:12:19 PM
> Subject: [Grovenet] Habla English?
>
>
> I notice in the current City bill an
Invitation to the Annual Community
> Meeting. The invitation is in Spanish on one
side.
> Is that so our non-English, Spanish speaking
citizens will know to
> attend?
>
> So, will everything be translated for them at
the meeting, or will the
> meeting be held in Spanish?
> If so, why?
>
>
_______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________
________
>
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Everyone is raving about the all-new Yahoo!
Mail beta.
> http://new.mail.yahoo.com
>
_______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
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------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 14:55:14 -0800
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <000001c7382f$0dee5510$6401a8c0 at RONPORTABLE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I've noticed the same thing too, Vickie.
Personally, I have no objection to businesses catering to a particular group
by providing information in their native language. It's their choice as a
business to advertise and support their customer base as they see fit.
There are parts of San Francisco where one *must* be able to read Cyrillic
Russian to understand which store is which, much less what to buy there! The
same is true in other neighborhoods in Vietnamese and Chinese. Those areas
are small, since most businesses recognize the cost of turning away the
English-only speaking majority who live around them. And even those without
English signs that I've visited have people running them who speak English.
Indeed, I can't say I ever found a shop where owners, counter people and
customers didn't speak some English and who were often eager to try their
English on a visitor.
Indeed, the single largest ethnic group who seems to have the greatest
percentage of people who do not speak English seems to me to be the Mexican
immigrants. Maybe that's a result of my being submerged in the local
atmosphere with so many Mexican residents. It's been a decade since I walked
the neighborhoods of San Francisco.
But public money is not private money. That's where I start resisting
spending money to support non-English speaking people. Although I keep
saying schools aren't what I asked about, it's clear schools are foremost on
many people's minds. I had the impression our schools were strapped for
cash, but it seems that there's plenty around to support bi-lingual
communications when the person wanting help is Spanish.
We've given governments and schools a very hard task by allowing people to
live here and access government resources, including schools, who do not
know English. I think that's the first and largest mistake.
If I had school-age kids in local classrooms, I'd be very critical of taking
money out of the classroom to "help" a minority because he/she doesn't speak
English.
The fact that businesses are deciding it's worth while to advertise to and
support non-English speaking people is a serious warning sign that we're
losing the American culture to an avalanche of people who are intent upon
replacing it with their own values simply because they don't understand the
rest of us.
Rather than stop those people with onerous laws forbidding their use of
their native language such as we've seen in many workplaces, I'd rather lead
them into an understanding of the culture we already have. I'd rather
assimilate them than be replaced by them. And I believe the first step in
doing that is for them to learn our language, the English language. That's
what other ethnic groups do regularly and eagerly, even though for many of
them it's a horrendous task.
What's wrong with the Mexican immigrants?
Ron D'Eau Claire
-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Vickie Madeoneup
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 2:25 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
This is an interesting subject that I have wondered about myself.
The first thing I noticed a few years ago was the ATM machines giving
English or Spanish choices.
Now I see billboards in the local area that are Spanish only.
There is an employee at Tom McCall that translates all of the parent
information that goes hoime into Spanish, plus she makes the attendance
calls for Spanish speaking parents, but .... what would we do if it was
Japanese or Russian?
I too have been curious about that dilemma, and it may already exist and I
don't know it.
btw Recently we had a gang related parent meeting that was in Spanish
with English interpretations. that seemed odd to me at first but then it
was explained to me that the machines that interpret are spendy and that
because of a limited supply it was easier to translate into English instead
of trying to procure enough machines to translate into Spanish.
Good subject as translating does add an expense to the schools but on the
flip side it's important for all parents to be informed.
Vickie
What can you do? Check out these ideas.
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three months of the year.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12531620/
---------------------------------
Access over 1 million songs - Yahoo! Music Unlimited.
_______________________________________________
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------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 14:58:50 -0800
From: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>
Subject: [Grovenet] Local Merchants - Ace - Wins again
To: grovenet <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <A7F20EAF-848A-4508-B6DD-951A782A6BFB at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Once again I have had to make more than one trip to Ace to fix my
problems.
First trip, buy a heater.
Second trip, exchange the heater for one that fits.
Note to self: do a better job of taking dimensions the first time.
Note to everyone:
Our local Ace Hardware is a great place to do business.
Prompt, fair, knowledgeable. And great involved local people.
David Morelli
P.S. The last time I comparison shopped, Ace even had a better
price. Why bother driving elsewhere?
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:23:11 -0800
From: Deena <deenaellen at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <0JBV0078WVQQ69N0 at vms044.mailsrvcs.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
As I remember it, last year translation services were available at
the Annual Town Meeting. I don't think that anyone availed themselves
of the opportunity. The technology isn't so difficult, actually.
Here's how it works. There's a low power FM transmitter with a
wearable microphone, and several sets of receivers with headsets, all
tuned to the same (hopefully unused in the area) frequency. A
translator wears the transmitter, and translates into the microphone,
which is picked up by the receivers in the room.
If I remember correctly, the City either borrowed, or rented the
equipment from Community Action Organization at a very low cost. I
believe that the translator was a volunteer. I'm assuming that a
similar process has happened this year, although I'm no longer in a
position to know that for sure. Spanish language translation was
chosen since it is by far the most prevalent non-English language
spoken in this area, whether by people whose roots are Mexican,
Spanish, El Salvadoran, Venezuelan, Chilean, Puerto Rican,
Honduran......the list goes on.
Regards,
Deena
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 16:48:14 -0800
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <000001c7383e$d7232140$6401a8c0 at RONPORTABLE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Thanks Deena! You are the first to answer the question <G>.
That's sounds like a good approach to handle the issue.
And you're right that, certainly, Spanish is the most common language spoken
here after English.
Just for fun I check on the "popularity" of the World's languages. Here's
the top ten:
1) English
2) Chinese
3) Japanese
4) Spanish
5) German
6) French
7) Portuguese
8) Korean
9) Italian
10) Arabic
From:
http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats7.htm
So in the top three two out of three are Asian languages. Hmmmmm....
Ron D'Eau Claire
-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Deena
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 4:23 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
As I remember it, last year translation services were available at
the Annual Town Meeting. I don't think that anyone availed themselves
of the opportunity. The technology isn't so difficult, actually.
Here's how it works. There's a low power FM transmitter with a
wearable microphone, and several sets of receivers with headsets, all
tuned to the same (hopefully unused in the area) frequency. A
translator wears the transmitter, and translates into the microphone,
which is picked up by the receivers in the room.
If I remember correctly, the City either borrowed, or rented the
equipment from Community Action Organization at a very low cost. I
believe that the translator was a volunteer. I'm assuming that a
similar process has happened this year, although I'm no longer in a
position to know that for sure. Spanish language translation was
chosen since it is by far the most prevalent non-English language
spoken in this area, whether by people whose roots are Mexican,
Spanish, El Salvadoran, Venezuelan, Chilean, Puerto Rican,
Honduran......the list goes on.
Regards,
Deena
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 17:44:59 -0800
From: "allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <001101c73846$c63ad8c0$6501a8c0 at laptop1K>
Content-Type: text/plain; format=flowed; charset=iso-8859-1;
reply-type=original
I know you asked why the announcement was sent out in Spanish (to a town
meeting - not to schools).
I was just trying to get clarification on your earlier comment that you
would support 'some' services that were targeted at getting residents (legal
ones) some help in assimilating the language that they would need to fully
participate. That's why I asked the question with legal immigrants in mind
as well.
>From this answer you seem to be saying that the primary help should be
directed at school age children. But you don't seem to exclude the
possibility of helping adults in a non school setting.
Then you restated that "At the very least, we should not spend public
> money accommodating those who do not speak English beyond programs to
> provide opportunities to help them learn English..."
Do you think that an opportunity to learn English is a town meeting with a
translator? What if unbeknownst to either you or me, the translator was part
of a program to specifically help legal residents learn english? Or what if
it was free and didn't involve public money? (Deena's post suggested that is
a possibility too - the translator was volunteer and the equipment may have
been borrowed.)
I am not disagreeing with you that we need a common language and that it
should be English. We are only trying to figure out where the boundaries are
between helping legitimate citizens with legitimate right to access to their
local government and those that go overboard or are not sufficiently cost
effective.
It is very hard to see where the line is between having english under attack
by needs of spanish speakers and reasonable accomodation for legitimate
immigrants who are in the process of learning english. (Arnold
Schwarzenagger said it took him 5-7 years to really learn to understand it).
If we have a constant stream of legal immigrants who need help learning the
language over a 5-7 year period then the stream of legitimate support also
seems to be constant. It is not hard to understand why people feel such a
constant stream of need feels like an assault. It is like caring for an
invalid - no breaks and no long term improvement in sight.
In last year's campaign I met a very liberal campaign worker who was a
fairly left leaning leftie except when it came to the issue of speaking
Spanish. This person had been turned down for several jobs because they
were not bilingual. Speaking only english was a detriment in the private
sector because businesses wanted workers who could help all the customers
they were likely to come in contact with. (This was true across a variety
of stores and service industries.)
If somebody had suggested a law requiring only English at businesses in
Oregon they would have a very willing campaigner the frustration was so
high.
If businesses are jumping on board the bilingual train, then all the voices
who cry out for government to be run like a business might be part of what
is driving this as well.
Katie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
> Katie, I didn't refer to the status of the immigrants, legal or illegal.
> Those comments were from others.
>
> I asked several questions about WHY the announcement about the town
> meeting
> was sent out in Spanish, that's all.
>
> My comment you quoted below was with LEGAL immigrants specifically in
> mind.
> I believe we need a "national language". It is, by default, English, but
> that is under attack with greater and greater demands for equal time for
> other languages, most notably Spanish.
>
> As I said, my position is that we should help immigrants become
> assimilated
> into the American culture, and that includes speaking English. I'll stop
> short of making competency in English a requirement for residency, but
> perhaps I could be convinced that might be a good idea.
>
> I think competency in English should be a requirement for every citizen,
> native born or immigrated. At the very least, we should not spend public
> money accommodating those who do not speak English beyond programs to
> provide opportunities to help them learn English, and I'd put the primary
> focus there on aid to school-age children so they can be integrated into
> English-speaking classrooms as quickly as possible.
>
> Ron D'Eau Claire
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
> Behalf Of allnutt
> Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 12:49 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
>
>
> Rob,
> If the translator at the city meeting was for the sole purpose of helping
> legitimate immigrants learn English would you have a problem with the
> translator being there?
>
> Katie
> PS Even if it helped with other concerns as a byproduct?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 9:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
>
>
>>
>> But I will always object to spending taxpayer dollars to provide
>> Spanish-speaking facilities with the sole exceptions of resources to
>> help immigrants learn English and a reasonable multi-lingual
>> capability to render assistance in emergencies.
>>
>> Ron D'Eau Claire
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:10:08 -0800
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Local Merchants - Ace - Wins again
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <45AAE280.9080702 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
Please note. You can now buy script for/from your school to purchase at
ace. Nice percentage of purchase goes to your school that way.
David Morelli wrote:
> Once again I have had to make more than one trip to Ace to fix my
> problems.
>
> First trip, buy a heater.
>
> Second trip, exchange the heater for one that fits.
>
> Note to self: do a better job of taking dimensions the first time.
>
> Note to everyone:
>
> Our local Ace Hardware is a great place to do business.
>
> Prompt, fair, knowledgeable. And great involved local people.
>
> David Morelli
>
> P.S. The last time I comparison shopped, Ace even had a better
> price. Why bother driving elsewhere?
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 18:13:01 -0800
From: Steven <NoSpam03 at comcast.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <45AAE32D.5080505 at comcast.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
And what of the quality of the translator? What if one were to be biased
and translating with a particular spin.
It is also an issue with radio/TV. Who knows what people might be
'learning'.
Deena wrote:
> As I remember it, last year translation services were available at
> the Annual Town Meeting. I don't think that anyone availed themselves
> of the opportunity. The technology isn't so difficult, actually.
> Here's how it works. There's a low power FM transmitter with a
> wearable microphone, and several sets of receivers with headsets, all
> tuned to the same (hopefully unused in the area) frequency. A
> translator wears the transmitter, and translates into the microphone,
> which is picked up by the receivers in the room.
>
> If I remember correctly, the City either borrowed, or rented the
> equipment from Community Action Organization at a very low cost. I
> believe that the translator was a volunteer. I'm assuming that a
> similar process has happened this year, although I'm no longer in a
> position to know that for sure. Spanish language translation was
> chosen since it is by far the most prevalent non-English language
> spoken in this area, whether by people whose roots are Mexican,
> Spanish, El Salvadoran, Venezuelan, Chilean, Puerto Rican,
> Honduran......the list goes on.
>
> Regards,
> Deena
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:03:07 -0800
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <000001c7385a$104c5ac0$6401a8c0 at RONPORTABLE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Okay, I plead guilty to fuzziness. I don't know where the exact boundaries
on spending to support non-English speaking people should be. I can see
benefits for us all if immigrants are assimilated into our society and
culture as easily and quickly as possible. I think learning English is a
critical part of that assimilation process.
But I stop short of demanding that everyone who would live here *must* be
fluent or at least competent in English. That's a personal judgment based on
what I see happening in other countries. There are some who say we should
require an English competency test before issuing a green card or, at the
least, allowing them to become citizens. I can understand that feeling and I
wouldn't object to such a rule even if I would not be the first to promote
it.
I put emphasis on children of school age because a very fast clock is
"ticking" for them. I believe that a year of school that is missed for any
reason is harder to recover than a year for an adult. And children who
immigrate here must learn a lot more than readin' writin' and 'rithmatic.
They have to become part of the culture. They need to understand and
interact with the kids who have lived here all their lives. That requires
English.
The program Deena described sounds very reasonable for a town meeting.
If I had to find a specific place where I'd "draw the line" on language, it
would be that no one has the right to demand that someone be available to
communicate with them in anything other than English. If someone chooses not
to learn English, they are choosing to make themselves ineligible for many
of the privileges, benefits and conveniences of our society. Indeed, they
may be putting themselves at some risk if they had an emergency and were
unable to communicate.
On the other hand, I think it serves us all well if we invest a reasonable
amount of time and money in helping immigrants learn English if they have
the inclination to do so.
Ron D'Eau Claire
-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of allnutt
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 5:45 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
I know you asked why the announcement was sent out in Spanish (to a town
meeting - not to schools).
I was just trying to get clarification on your earlier comment that you
would support 'some' services that were targeted at getting residents (legal
ones) some help in assimilating the language that they would need to fully
participate. That's why I asked the question with legal immigrants in mind
as well.
>From this answer you seem to be saying that the primary help should be
directed at school age children. But you don't seem to exclude the
possibility of helping adults in a non school setting.
Then you restated that "At the very least, we should not spend public
> money accommodating those who do not speak English beyond programs to
> provide opportunities to help them learn English..."
Do you think that an opportunity to learn English is a town meeting with a
translator? What if unbeknownst to either you or me, the translator was part
of a program to specifically help legal residents learn english? Or what if
it was free and didn't involve public money? (Deena's post suggested that is
a possibility too - the translator was volunteer and the equipment may have
been borrowed.)
I am not disagreeing with you that we need a common language and that it
should be English. We are only trying to figure out where the boundaries are
between helping legitimate citizens with legitimate right to access to their
local government and those that go overboard or are not sufficiently cost
effective.
It is very hard to see where the line is between having english under attack
by needs of spanish speakers and reasonable accomodation for legitimate
immigrants who are in the process of learning english. (Arnold
Schwarzenagger said it took him 5-7 years to really learn to understand it).
If we have a constant stream of legal immigrants who need help learning the
language over a 5-7 year period then the stream of legitimate support also
seems to be constant. It is not hard to understand why people feel such a
constant stream of need feels like an assault. It is like caring for an
invalid - no breaks and no long term improvement in sight.
In last year's campaign I met a very liberal campaign worker who was a
fairly left leaning leftie except when it came to the issue of speaking
Spanish. This person had been turned down for several jobs because they
were not bilingual. Speaking only english was a detriment in the private
sector because businesses wanted workers who could help all the customers
they were likely to come in contact with. (This was true across a variety
of stores and service industries.)
If somebody had suggested a law requiring only English at businesses in
Oregon they would have a very willing campaigner the frustration was so
high.
If businesses are jumping on board the bilingual train, then all the voices
who cry out for government to be run like a business might be part of what
is driving this as well.
Katie
----- Original Message -----
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 2:06 PM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
> Katie, I didn't refer to the status of the immigrants, legal or
> illegal. Those comments were from others.
>
> I asked several questions about WHY the announcement about the town
> meeting
> was sent out in Spanish, that's all.
>
> My comment you quoted below was with LEGAL immigrants specifically in
> mind.
> I believe we need a "national language". It is, by default, English, but
> that is under attack with greater and greater demands for equal time for
> other languages, most notably Spanish.
>
> As I said, my position is that we should help immigrants become
> assimilated
> into the American culture, and that includes speaking English. I'll stop
> short of making competency in English a requirement for residency, but
> perhaps I could be convinced that might be a good idea.
>
> I think competency in English should be a requirement for every
> citizen, native born or immigrated. At the very least, we should not
> spend public money accommodating those who do not speak English beyond
> programs to provide opportunities to help them learn English, and I'd
> put the primary focus there on aid to school-age children so they can
> be integrated into English-speaking classrooms as quickly as possible.
>
> Ron D'Eau Claire
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]
> On Behalf Of allnutt
> Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 12:49 PM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
>
>
> Rob,
> If the translator at the city meeting was for the sole purpose of
> helping legitimate immigrants learn English would you have a problem
> with the translator being there?
>
> Katie
> PS Even if it helped with other concerns as a byproduct?
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
> To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 9:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
>
>
>>
>> But I will always object to spending taxpayer dollars to provide
>> Spanish-speaking facilities with the sole exceptions of resources to
>> help immigrants learn English and a reasonable multi-lingual
>> capability to render assistance in emergencies.
>>
>> Ron D'Eau Claire
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 20:08:48 -0800
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Local Merchants - Ace - Wins again
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <000101c7385a$dbebbc20$6401a8c0 at RONPORTABLE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Yep, in spite of their "big box" appearance out on the edge of town, Ace is
a great store. They've been a valuable resource to us from the day we moved
to Forest Grove, even when they were cramped into the little Nursery
building <G>.
Ron D'Eau Claire
-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Steven
Sent: Sunday, January 14, 2007 6:10 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Local Merchants - Ace - Wins again
Please note. You can now buy script for/from your school to purchase at
ace. Nice percentage of purchase goes to your school that way.
David Morelli wrote:
> Once again I have had to make more than one trip to Ace to fix my
> problems.
>
> First trip, buy a heater.
>
> Second trip, exchange the heater for one that fits.
>
> Note to self: do a better job of taking dimensions the first time.
>
> Note to everyone:
>
> Our local Ace Hardware is a great place to do business.
>
> Prompt, fair, knowledgeable. And great involved local people.
>
> David Morelli
>
> P.S. The last time I comparison shopped, Ace even had a better
> price. Why bother driving elsewhere?
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
>
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Sun, 14 Jan 2007 23:03:15 -0800
From: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Local Merchants - Ace - Wins again
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <9A63127D-4F36-46BC-B92B-0DC3873B6670 at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
On Jan 14, 2007, at 6:10 PM, Steven wrote:
> Please note. You can now buy script for/from your school to
> purchase at
> ace. Nice percentage of purchase goes to your school that way.
I had not heard of it, but I'm not surprised, they have a strong
local service ethic.
David
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 00:11:09 -0800
From: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <C02CE91D-22C0-4EE5-A12F-1E2DD22A5F40 at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; delsp=yes; format=flowed
On Jan 14, 2007, at 9:30 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> My gosh, David. What does Dr. King have to do with this? Martin
> Luther King was an American, born and raised and killed here, for
> all the beauty of his life and the shame of his death means to
> America.
>
> Dr King was a great example of how important it is to know the
> language of one's homeland. How effective do you think he would
> have been preaching in some obscure African dialect?
>
> This is about language, not race. This is about language, not
> ethnic choices.
I was talking about the consequences of encouraging division rather
than coming together. There are sufficient examples of nations that
have serious problems caused by deep divisions in their populace.
Those divisions may be along language, race, economic, religious, or
other lines. When those divisions are serious enough they can
fracture the nation. When they are less serious, they can distract
the progress of the nation while people spend their energies
compensating for the problems raised by the division. Language is
one division that this nation faces, and I would like to see that
fracture minimized.
>
> No one is suggesting that Spanish speaking people would not be able
> to participate in "their country". That's Mexico! The question is
> whether we make the USA look and act and sound like Mexico.
That statement is a good example of what concerns me. Spanish
speaking people in this country may be from here, Mexico or
elsewhere. Some of them were born here and that makes their country
the United States of America. I want those Americans to be part of
this nation, and to consider them self as part of this nation. That
is why I support English language education as a high priority in our
system for all not-speakers. I prefer total immersion in English,
because that appears to have the highest success rate in developing
English speakers.
>
> ...
> I believe that if someone wants to immigrate, no matter the reason,
> they should understand that they will live here with a significant
> handicap if
> they fail to learn to read, write, and speak English well. I object
> to our spending money trying to accommodate those folks as if they
> had a "right" to expect that Spanish be used here as it was at home.
Funny thing, even though Spanish is the official language of Mexico,
it is not necessarily the first language of the poorest Mexican
migrants. Mexico has made official translations of their national
anthem into the following native languages: Chinanteco, H?a H?u,
Mixteco, Maya, Nahuatl and Tenek because there are sufficient numbers
of those people who do not speak Spanish as a first language. We
should help our citizens and residents speak our common language to
avoid that problem.
> ...
>
> Ron D'Eau Claire
David
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 00:24:06 -0800
From: David Morelli <jo.david at verizon.net>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <AF883345-E7B1-4D84-9331-199FD89B3399 at verizon.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; delsp=yes; format=flowed
Ron,
I looked at that site, and your popularity of languages does deserve
a caveat, those numbers are for "Internet World Users By Language".
Not language use worldwide. The site's second table indicates that
estimated users give a different order.
1) Chinese 1,351 M
2) English 1,143 M
3) Spanish 512 M
4) French 388 M
5) Arabic 340 M
6) Portuguese 234 M
7) Japanese 128 M
8) German 96 M
9) Korean 74 M
10) Italian 59 M
On Jan 14, 2007, at 4:48 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> Thanks Deena! You are the first to answer the question <G>.
>
> That's sounds like a good approach to handle the issue.
>
> And you're right that, certainly, Spanish is the most common
> language spoken
> here after English.
>
> Just for fun I check on the "popularity" of the World's languages.
> Here's
> the top ten:
>
> 1) English
>
> 2) Chinese
>
> 3) Japanese
>
> 4) Spanish
>
> 5) German
>
> 6) French
>
> 7) Portuguese
>
> 8) Korean
>
> 9) Italian
>
> 10) Arabic
>
> From:
>
> http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats7.htm
>
> So in the top three two out of three are Asian languages. Hmmmmm....
>
> Ron D'Eau Claire
------------------------------
Message: 19
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:07:10 -0800
From: Meredith Bliss <mbliss at agora.rdrop.com>
Subject: [Grovenet] Trunk Monkeys, anyone?
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <200701150807.10913.mbliss at agora.rdrop.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
I don't watch commercial TV much, so may have missed these locally produced
ads, but they are hilarious! Now what would Alan have done in #3 ... ?
http://www.trunkmonkeyad.com
----------------------------------------
Just happy to be here, but speaking
only for myself!
Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss
----------------------------------------
------------------------------
Message: 20
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:38:52 -0800
From: "Dale Wiley" <dale.wiley at netzero.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <000e01c738c3$c6b02800$0100a8c0 at wileyh8jqkt2bp>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
You may all continue to debate the viability of speaking a foreign language
versus not, and the fact that 38% of the students in our District are
Hispanic, which tends to be a somewhat accurate measurement of the area
demographics.
The fact is that depending on the type of business you are in, the ability
to speak Spanish is damn near a requirement in order to effectively
communicate with a work force or clientintle. Many jobs now offer a premium
for bilingual employees..health care, sheriff and police work, any job
requiring a lot of contact with non English speaking people.
Many years ago, my work force in the construction and nursery business
became Spanish speaking. I have had 4 members of the same family working for
us, and we have taught each other the others languages. We can effectively
converse in either English or Spanish. I feel that having a student graduate
from high school with a proficiency in a second language would greatly
increase their chances in certain sections of the employment market. it did
for my niece, it got her a 7% premium for being a fluent Spanish speaker in
teaching second grade.
What do you call a person who only speaks one language ?? Scroll down for
the answer ...
An American. in
-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
Behalf Of David Morelli
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 12:11 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
On Jan 14, 2007, at 9:30 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> My gosh, David. What does Dr. King have to do with this? Martin
> Luther King was an American, born and raised and killed here, for
> all the beauty of his life and the shame of his death means to
> America.
>
> Dr King was a great example of how important it is to know the
> language of one's homeland. How effective do you think he would
> have been preaching in some obscure African dialect?
>
> This is about language, not race. This is about language, not
> ethnic choices.
I was talking about the consequences of encouraging division rather
than coming together. There are sufficient examples of nations that
have serious problems caused by deep divisions in their populace.
Those divisions may be along language, race, economic, religious, or
other lines. When those divisions are serious enough they can
fracture the nation. When they are less serious, they can distract
the progress of the nation while people spend their energies
compensating for the problems raised by the division. Language is
one division that this nation faces, and I would like to see that
fracture minimized.
>
> No one is suggesting that Spanish speaking people would not be able
> to participate in "their country". That's Mexico! The question is
> whether we make the USA look and act and sound like Mexico.
That statement is a good example of what concerns me. Spanish
speaking people in this country may be from here, Mexico or
elsewhere. Some of them were born here and that makes their country
the United States of America. I want those Americans to be part of
this nation, and to consider them self as part of this nation. That
is why I support English language education as a high priority in our
system for all not-speakers. I prefer total immersion in English,
because that appears to have the highest success rate in developing
English speakers.
>
> ...
> I believe that if someone wants to immigrate, no matter the reason,
> they should understand that they will live here with a significant
> handicap if
> they fail to learn to read, write, and speak English well. I object
> to our spending money trying to accommodate those folks as if they
> had a "right" to expect that Spanish be used here as it was at home.
Funny thing, even though Spanish is the official language of Mexico,
it is not necessarily the first language of the poorest Mexican
migrants. Mexico has made official translations of their national
anthem into the following native languages: Chinanteco, H?a H?u,
Mixteco, Maya, Nahuatl and Tenek because there are sufficient numbers
of those people who do not speak Spanish as a first language. We
should help our citizens and residents speak our common language to
avoid that problem.
> ...
>
> Ron D'Eau Claire
David
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
------------------------------
Message: 21
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 08:39:21 -0800
From: Meredith Bliss <mbliss at agora.rdrop.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: dale.wiley at netzero.com, Forest Grove local interests list
<grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <200701150839.22421.mbliss at agora.rdrop.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
You may also want to reflect on the fact that there are at least three major
languages that have been in common use in the British Isles for many
centuries. And then there is English, and while you may be able to navigate
around London fairly well with knowledge of only "standard English," you may
well find that in Manchester, as in many other locales, you don't have a
chance.
--Bud (who loves Dylan Thomas' remark about BBC announcers "who
speak as
though they had the Elgin Marbles in their mouths")
On Monday 15 January 2007 08:38, Dale Wiley wrote:
> You may all continue to debate the viability of speaking a foreign
language
> versus not, and the fact that 38% of the students in our District are
> Hispanic, which tends to be a somewhat accurate measurement of the area
> demographics.
>
> The fact is that depending on the type of business you are in, the ability
> to speak Spanish is damn near a requirement in order to effectively
> communicate with a work force or clientintle. Many jobs now offer a
premium
> for bilingual employees..health care, sheriff and police work, any job
> requiring a lot of contact with non English speaking people.
>
> Many years ago, my work force in the construction and nursery business
> became Spanish speaking. I have had 4 members of the same family working
> for us, and we have taught each other the others languages. We can
> effectively converse in either English or Spanish. I feel that having a
> student graduate from high school with a proficiency in a second language
> would greatly increase their chances in certain sections of the
employment
> market. it did for my niece, it got her a 7% premium for being a fluent
> Spanish speaker in teaching second grade.
>
> What do you call a person who only speaks one language ?? Scroll down for
> the answer ...
>
>
>
>
> An American. in
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com]On
> Behalf Of David Morelli
> Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 12:11 AM
> To: Forest Grove local interests list
> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
>
> On Jan 14, 2007, at 9:30 AM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> > My gosh, David. What does Dr. King have to do with this? Martin
> > Luther King was an American, born and raised and killed here, for
> > all the beauty of his life and the shame of his death means to
> > America.
> >
> > Dr King was a great example of how important it is to know the
> > language of one's homeland. How effective do you think he would
> > have been preaching in some obscure African dialect?
> >
> > This is about language, not race. This is about language, not
> > ethnic choices.
>
> I was talking about the consequences of encouraging division rather
> than coming together. There are sufficient examples of nations that
> have serious problems caused by deep divisions in their populace.
> Those divisions may be along language, race, economic, religious, or
> other lines. When those divisions are serious enough they can
> fracture the nation. When they are less serious, they can distract
> the progress of the nation while people spend their energies
> compensating for the problems raised by the division. Language is
> one division that this nation faces, and I would like to see that
> fracture minimized.
>
> > No one is suggesting that Spanish speaking people would not be able
> > to participate in "their country". That's Mexico! The question is
> > whether we make the USA look and act and sound like Mexico.
>
> That statement is a good example of what concerns me. Spanish
> speaking people in this country may be from here, Mexico or
> elsewhere. Some of them were born here and that makes their country
> the United States of America. I want those Americans to be part of
> this nation, and to consider them self as part of this nation. That
> is why I support English language education as a high priority in our
> system for all not-speakers. I prefer total immersion in English,
> because that appears to have the highest success rate in developing
> English speakers.
>
> > ...
> > I believe that if someone wants to immigrate, no matter the reason,
> > they should understand that they will live here with a significant
> > handicap if
> > they fail to learn to read, write, and speak English well. I object
> > to our spending money trying to accommodate those folks as if they
> > had a "right" to expect that Spanish be used here as it was at home.
>
> Funny thing, even though Spanish is the official language of Mexico,
> it is not necessarily the first language of the poorest Mexican
> migrants. Mexico has made official translations of their national
> anthem into the following native languages: Chinanteco, H?a H?u,
> Mixteco, Maya, Nahuatl and Tenek because there are sufficient numbers
> of those people who do not speak Spanish as a first language. We
> should help our citizens and residents speak our common language to
> avoid that problem.
>
> > ...
> >
> > Ron D'Eau Claire
>
> David
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
--
----------------------------------------
Just happy to be here, but speaking
only for myself!
Meredith Bliss --- www.rdrop.com/~mbliss
----------------------------------------
------------------------------
Message: 22
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:35:15 -0800
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <000001c738cb$853ad390$6401a8c0 at RONPORTABLE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Aha! Clearly I didn't spend enough time reading it. I was a bit surprised
Chinese wasn't in first place, and had heard that Spanish was close to
English.
I just searched on a ranking of language by number of users, and didn't
realize the table was internet-only.
Ron D'Eau Claire
-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of David Morelli
Sent: Monday, January 15, 2007 12:24 AM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
Ron,
I looked at that site, and your popularity of languages does deserve
a caveat, those numbers are for "Internet World Users By Language".
Not language use worldwide. The site's second table indicates that
estimated users give a different order.
1) Chinese 1,351 M
2) English 1,143 M
3) Spanish 512 M
4) French 388 M
5) Arabic 340 M
6) Portuguese 234 M
7) Japanese 128 M
8) German 96 M
9) Korean 74 M
10) Italian 59 M
On Jan 14, 2007, at 4:48 PM, Ron D'Eau Claire wrote:
> Thanks Deena! You are the first to answer the question <G>.
>
> That's sounds like a good approach to handle the issue.
>
> And you're right that, certainly, Spanish is the most common
> language spoken
> here after English.
>
> Just for fun I check on the "popularity" of the World's languages.
> Here's
> the top ten:
>
> 1) English
>
> 2) Chinese
>
> 3) Japanese
>
> 4) Spanish
>
> 5) German
>
> 6) French
>
> 7) Portuguese
>
> 8) Korean
>
> 9) Italian
>
> 10) Arabic
>
> From:
>
> http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats7.htm
>
> So in the top three two out of three are Asian languages. Hmmmmm....
>
> Ron D'Eau Claire
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
------------------------------
Message: 23
Date: Mon, 15 Jan 2007 09:35:16 -0800
From: "Ron D'Eau Claire" <rondec at easystreet.com>
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Habla English?
To: "'Forest Grove local interests list'" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Message-ID: <000101c738cb$858a2c10$6401a8c0 at RONPORTABLE>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
David wrote:
That statement is a good example of what concerns me. Spanish
speaking people in this country may be from here, Mexico or
elsewhere. Some of them were born here and that makes their country
the United States of America. I want those Americans to be part of
this nation, and to consider them self as part of this nation. That
is why I support English language education as a high priority in our
system for all not-speakers. I prefer total immersion in English,
because that appears to have the highest success rate in developing
English speakers.
----------------------------
When you take things out of context you change the meaning, David.
I agree with what you wrote. I thought it was obvious we were talking about
immigrants. That word seems to have been in most of my sentences. Also I
never singled out "Spanish speaking people in this country..." I clearly
said "Spanish-speaking-only..." meaning those who cannot communicate in
English.
If we have second-generation Americans who cannot read or speak English, the
American school system has utterly failed! I wasn't aware that situation
existed.
David wrote:
I was talking about the consequences of encouraging division rather
than coming together. There are sufficient examples of nations that
have serious problems caused by deep divisions in their populace.
Those divisions may be along language, race, economic, religious, or
other lines. When those divisions are serious enough they can
fracture the nation. When they are less serious, they can distract
the progress of the nation while people spend their energies
compensating for the problems raised by the division. Language is
one division that this nation faces, and I would like to see that
fracture minimized.
---------------------------
Again I agree. Everything I have written is in the spirit of bringing
people together, not just American citizens but all legal residents of
America. I believe that begins with a common language. Without a common
language, little else can work.
Ron D'Eau Claire
------------------------------
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End of GroveNet Digest, Vol 26, Issue 15
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