[Grovenet] The law

[Phoenixacm at aol.com]

So, as I understand this conversation, Walt, we agree that torture is 
despicable, unethical, and illegal.   We agree on the importance of civil 
disobedience when called by conscience.   We agree that those in the military who speak 
out against torture are heroes of conscience, and those who didn't speak out 
may have a hard time sleeping at night.

You say you were in the military.   And, how long did you spend overseas?   
Military members in the US do not live in a vacuum, but overseas they do - a 
military vacuum.   In the States, they have options and support - their local 
minister, their local lawyer, even their local journalist.   Overseas they will 
get legal representation if they are accused of a crime.   They may not speak 
the local language.  They may not get mail on a regular basis (e.g., the 
newspaper from home).   

They may not know anything about international law.   In fact, they may not 
know anything about law, period.   Remember these are mostly twenty-somethings 
doing the dirty work.   They don't have the knowledge of the world that you 
have accumulated.   (How much legal knowledge do you think the person on the 
street has?   If you and I went out on the street and started asking legal 
questions, how hard do you think it would be to stump people?)   And, they are in an 
environment where social cohesion is a life or death issue.   (And, no, it 
doesn't take long debate to change established law.   Ask Bob Browning how many 
changes in the law happened in the past year alone.   Ask a tax accountant how 
difficult it is to keep up with tax law changes from year to year.)

You're dreaming if you think the brass will not force the issue if a 
servicemember acts on conscience.   They were half a world away, in a military vacuum, 
and obeying orders that they presumed to be lawfull ones.   Do you think the 
brass is afraid of an appeal by some subordinate who is refusing to obey 
orders?   Do you think that subordinate thinks they will be protected by some 
friendly journalist telling their story?   I think you've been watching too many 
movies, Walt.   

The only thing I see that we disagree on is that you feel free to criticize 
the behavior of people who are in an environment that you can barely imagine, 
and you think that every individual should behave heroically.  I think you've 
got a hell of a nerve to criticize those people, and while I would love to 
believe that every individual is a hero (and that I myself would take the hero's 
role in such a situation) in fact, I don't believe that every individual is a 
hero.   That's why we get excited when we see people acting like heroes (and 
make movies about it).

Jane B-P


> As a matter of fact, Jane, I WAS in the military.  And, despite the
> best efforts of the powers that be, military people do not live in a
> vacuum... they are generally well aware of the news and the law and
> ethical questions.
> Does a Justice Department "legal opinion" trump established law? Not
> by a jugful. Established law can only be overturned by long debate,
> ending with a decision by the Supreme Court. The transient
> appointeees in the Justice Department... and this gang can't be any
> too transient for my tastes... can only hold sway until their
> decisions are legally challenged and negated.
> Can an EM be "shafted for life" for his refusal to obey an unlawful
> order? Absolutely. But in a matter such as this, where serious
> ethical questions are involved, the brass is not likely to force the
> issue because any appeal, the higher up it goes, is likely to drag
> the entire question of torture into the limelight, along with the
> names of who gave what orders and when. A few lower-ranking officers
> are likely to be thrown to the wolves in consequence, but even that
> is bad for morale.
> It comes down to a matter of individual courage and integrity. Some
> enlisted people did blow the whistle on Abu Grahib and other
> violations. Were they royally shafted in consequence? Was their
> punishment, if any, equal to the punishment of those poor enlisted
> slobs who went along enthusiastically with illegal orders, and were
> then scapegoated by the military as soon as the feces hit the fan? It
> would be interesting to know.
> Walt
> 




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