[Grovenet] Unintelligent Argument (WAS: Driving Help Needed)
Ron D'Eau Claire
ron at cobi.biz
Mon Jan 14 15:24:37 PST 2008
Sounds to me like you have the right approach, Carol!
I work in a "creative" field that encompasses writing and several scientific
and engineering disciplines.
Many people think they are acting intelligently by looking at what I or my
colleagues are doing and coming up with reasons why it's not the "right"
approach or even expounding why they know it "won't work".
My peers know my reaction to that: "Any idiot can argue why something won't
work. Tell me how to MAKE it work and we might even put your name on it!"
Your son will eventually figure out that learning is backwards. The less he
knows, the more he *thinks* he knows. The more he knows, the more he he
realizes how little he knows.
(How's that for this old dog tying a knot in his semantic leash?)
Ron D'Eau Claire
-----Original Message-----
From: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com [mailto:grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com] On
Behalf Of Carol Morgan
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 2:55 PM
To: Forest Grove local interests list
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Driving Help Needed
(Thread drift--so I will give quick warning to anyone who asks what this has
to do with driving, but there was discussion of parenting kids that think
and want the priveleges of an older age, and I am pushing it further. It
isn't unusual, though, that people ask for relevance even when I pick my OWN
subject line! These days I use things stimulating my interest to explore
whether it would make a good blog post, so they may always be a bit long for
emails. So I will also warn about that.)
I often have a similar experience with my oldest (who may very well in the
future also think that his reasoning could substitute for his father's
actual years of driving experience) where I tell him I get concerned when he
questions whether he or his father is the more correct about issues like
this, as if it were some kind of 50/50 chance at worst. I much prefer the
sense that he understands how much he has to learn rather than think he
trusts what he knows already.
I am planning to make the case to my kids (who may argue this) that the mere
fact of making an argument that they could be more mature for a given age is
probably actual evidence that they are not. Not only does it not really make
sense it is a bad sign of impatience, which is actually a sure sign of less
maturity.
I remember when I was twelve (scary because my oldest is 12 now and he seems
like a mere babe in arms to me still) arguing to my parents that I was
mature enough to go out on a date with a seventeen year old. And I might
have had a few points, and unfortunately my parents were a bit distracted by
them rather just saying WHAT?! NO WAY!!!
My main point was that I was a bit precocious as a child (see my email
address? In fact a bit too much, but only academically, not really broadly
intellectually. I got that degree from Stanford, a Master's degree, when I
was 21. I scored early in the academic arena and it caused me to not get
around to or get wrong ideas about other areas of development, particularly
social ones, even though I often had easy bragging rights like being about
to graduate high school at fifteen, several accomplishments in music
performance, and a few things that didn't qualify me to date as a young
child, that is for sure.
I wasn't out of control or anything, but my ease at passing for older than I
was physically along with my stats on paper made me feel like I could date
older guys and that they weren't cradle robbing by dating me. This
particular boy was pretty nice, we had gotten to know each other in the
course of a community play so it brought us together in a context removed
from the fact that our difference in grades would be obvious (and he didn't
know I was two years younger than my grade, which they did back then even
thought it is now out of vogue, probably for good reason).
Luckily for me, though they gave the whole subject more respect than it was
due letting me know that they were about to be worn down (I was dating
within two more years), I gave them a mature decision when they told me I
couldn't go to a movie with him that night. The kid had pre-purchased movie
tickets to something I wanted to see in planning for a big date after our
cast party. So when my parents said no I still felt bad for him being out
the money and went around to the other girls in the cast and found a
reasonably cute sixteen year old girl that agreed to go with him. They
thought it showed I wasn't a totally immature brat that I didn't just go sob
on my pillow or have petty jealousy prevent that solution.
Obviously I have given a bit of thought to the question of whether kids can
be more 'mature' than their years having navigated dangerous territory
arguing that myself. With my boys physiology they probably won't be dating
before they are ready (he doesn't even look 12 yet), but driving could very
well be the issue for us, too). I think it will be a good idea to at least
distract the issue by asking them to use whatever opportunity it is to
demonstrate their maturity rather than just argue it.
------ Original Message ------
Received: 02:12 PM PST, 01/14/2008
From: "a_tom_51 at juno.com" <a_tom_51 at juno.com>
To: grovenet at rdrop.com
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Driving Help Needed
Allen,
I have to laugh. Your son sounds alot like my son, now 30 years old.It's
been a very interesting ride. Raising kids continues to be an interesting
experience. Nate and I get along very well. It is really good to watch him
be a husband and father. Nate has an old beat up Mercedes diesel he calls a
junk-yard rescue. He is determined to get it running on waste vege oil,
right after he fixes the ball joint, brakes, and a multitude of other
things. (this kid wasn't interested auto repair at all when he was a teen).
Hang in there. Sounds to me like you're doing OK.
Tom Alexander
-- Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com> wrote:
Return-Path: <grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com>
Received: from mx05.dca.untd.com (mx05.dca.untd.com [10.171.44.35])
by maildeliver02.vgs.untd.com with SMTP id AABD2ZXTKAUKUVZ2
for <a_tom_51 at juno.com> (sender <grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com>);
Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:37:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from vmail.rdrop.com (vmail.rdrop.com [199.26.172.53])
by mx05.dca.untd.com with SMTP id AABD2ZXTTADHL7KJ
for <a_tom_51 at juno.com> (sender <grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com>);
Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:37:53 -0800 (PST)
Received: from agora.rdrop.com (agora.rdrop.com [199.26.172.34])
by vmail.rdrop.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id BA88C67FE7;
Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:37:47 -0800 (PST)
Received: from barracuda2.peak.org (barracuda2.peak.org [69.59.192.45])
by agora.rdrop.com (8.13.1/8.12.7) with ESMTP id m0ELbmJQ025463
for <grovenet at rdrop.com>; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:37:48 -0800 (PST)
(envelope-from osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com)
X-ASG-Debug-ID: 1200346665-75a801ee0000-jkSq60
X-Barracuda-URL: http://barracuda.peak.org:8000/cgi-bin/mark.cgi
Received: from web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com (localhost [127.0.0.1])
by barracuda2.peak.org (Spam Firewall) with SMTP id 10245CDE4D2
for <grovenet at rdrop.com>; Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:37:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: from web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com (web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com
[66.163.179.82]) by barracuda2.peak.org with SMTP id
CKoReO2JK9VLbm7h for <grovenet at rdrop.com>;
Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:37:45 -0800 (PST)
Received: (qmail 32383 invoked by uid 60001); 14 Jan 2008 21:37:44 -0000
X-YMail-OSG:
djCELC8VM1khZtwFJKFOwbsFfRMHyNDVdwnNd3QiIC3fpWN7eAaLQ9usT91yyyEpjbdtNS9pQUKV
vx2YdSU1fVxnm2cZM6hxBXqDMkScHJx9ohRbPAl46SnxVzIOug--
Received: from [134.134.136.1] by web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com via HTTP;
Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:37:44 PST
X-Mailer: YahooMailRC/818.31 YahooMailWebService/0.7.160
Date: Mon, 14 Jan 2008 13:37:44 -0800 (PST)
From: Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com>
X-ASG-Orig-Subj: Re: [Grovenet] Driving Help Needed
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Message-ID: <884515.32166.qm at web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
X-Barracuda-Connect: web35203.mail.mud.yahoo.com[66.163.179.82]
X-Barracuda-Start-Time: 1200346666
X-Barracuda-Virus-Scanned: by Peak Internet Spam Firewall at peak.org
X-Barracuda-Spam-Score: 0.28
X-Barracuda-Spam-Status: No,
SCORE=0.28 using per-user scores of TAG_LEVEL=1000.0
QUARANTINE_LEVEL=4.0 KILL_LEVEL=7.0 tests=HTML_MESSAGE,
MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR
X-Barracuda-Spam-Report: Code version 3.1, rules version 3.1.39526
Rule breakdown below
pts rule name description
---- ----------------------
--------------------------------------------------
0.28 MAILTO_TO_SPAM_ADDR URI: Includes a link to a likely spammer email
0.00 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message
X-Content-Filtered-By: Mailman/MimeDel 2.1.9rc1
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Driving Help Needed
X-BeenThere: grovenet at rdrop.com
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9rc1
Precedence: list
Reply-To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
List-Id: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet.rdrop.com>
List-Unsubscribe: <http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet>,
<mailto:grovenet-request at rdrop.com?subject=unsubscribe>
List-Archive: </pipermail>
List-Post: <mailto:grovenet at rdrop.com>
List-Help: <mailto:grovenet-request at rdrop.com?subject=help>
List-Subscribe: <http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet>,
<mailto:grovenet-request at rdrop.com?subject=subscribe>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
Sender: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com
Errors-To: grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com
X-ContentStamp: 77:38:1764731067
X-MAIL-INFO:13e9e9e190e500e120e4e4f1e47070f111a10504b90501f990d9f5a584510595
1024d1f5599000454490f06dc4e54589494919a0e1750065c900752599b0c9c1b48d612d8971
60bd7101bd14b9d5bdb90d0965153839d519d1381938a5891139cd85453934255d71e0717960
059db971bd95c9758d505024a965b175fd6524a12090e964e1990010a5c095ad6d5064e1b0f1
89e0f94930a97031fdf170658dc9b561f954512d356d21c1f4b440
X-UNTD-Peer-Info:
199.26.172.53|vmail.rdrop.com|vmail.rdrop.com|grovenet-bounces at rdrop.com
X-UNTD-UBE:-1
Steven, thank you for the Oregon code information.
Katie, as you do indeed know our son, thank you for the kind words and
advice.
Alan, thank you for your suggestion of Sears Driving School. Our son did
attend driving classes prior to getting his license, but we're seriously
considering if he needs remedial training.
Once again I'm reminded of how no matter what I write in an email, it can
never come close to conveying the same message delivered in a face-to-face
conversation.
The incident that occurred last evening definitely & immediately shocked &
scared my wife and I. It was all we could do not to scream at the top of our
lungs at him. That's why I wrote "After my heart rate and blood pressure
neared their normal levels . . .". And that's also why we immediately took
our son's drivers license from him. We agree he's not showing he deserves
the privelege of driving. We were extremely lucky that conditions were as
they were last evening, i.e. we were stopped at the signal, virtually no
traffic, no pouring rain, nobody approaching the intersection from behind
us, etc., else I shudder to think of all the dangerous, and deadly, outcomes
that could've occurred.
Even though I've been legally driving for over 31 years, I don't think in my
first 6 months of getting my license I would've considered it sensible to do
what our son did. But let's face it: we're all wired a little differently.
When the Good Lord gave our son a brain he must've stuffed it so full of
intelligence that there was little room left for common sense. The boy is
intelligent as hell but it's incidents like last night that I'll still be
saying to myself "What in HELL was he thinking??!!" until the day I die. His
passion and caring are so great that they sometimes overwhelm common sense,
like last night, for instance. Our son wants to get an old diesel engine car
(i.e. Mercedes) so he can first run it on bio-diesel and eventually convert
it to run on waste vegetable oil. His passion for conservation totally beat
up on and overruled his common sense last night. And that's why my wife and
I are here to make sure he understands he's wrong and
explain to our son why he's wrong, unlike my father who would've first said,
"It's common sense", followed by a "Because I said so" if I pressed the
issue further by asking something like, "But why is it wrong?"
This particular child of ours doesn't argue or defy us as a rebellious act.
His arguing is all about expressing his thoughts and opinions while trying
to find the truth. Like many teenagers, he thinks he's much, much older and
wiser than 16. I know I was a pain in the butt to my parents because I'm
sure I knew everything there was to know when I was age 16. But again, our
son's arguing is not malicious. It's all about getting at the truth. Is it
any wonder we think an excellent profession for him someday would be as a
legal investigator or forensic scientist or lawyer?
My intent in posting to Grovenet was to get information and help. I very
much appreciate those who responded by giving good information and helpful
feedback.
Allen Warren
----- Original Message ----
From: Steve Jerrett <stevedj at teleport.com>
To: Forest Grove local interests list <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 11:37:55 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Driving Help Needed
Katie,
I appreciate the advice on teen driving instruction.
I have been instructing my children for 10 years. They made their share of
'learning mistakes' and I did my share of correction. I would always discuss
the error and made it quite clear that a responsibility as serious as
driving was not open to much debate and interpretation. Any dissent would
lead to a temporary suspension of privileges. It is a one-sided issue by
design. Driving a motor vehicle is not the correct avenue to let an
emotionally or intellectually immature person "find themselves." There are
plenty of non life threatening issues that are appropriate.
I did not recommend that Allen pull his license or permit, but recommended a
parental suspension as long as his son continues to argue or debate. While
arguing or debating may be typical behavior for many teens, it has no place
behind the wheel.
You call his logic in this instance slightly flawed. I would call it
severely flawed. I hope that he is kept off the road pending father
maturation.
Yes, Katie, life is beautiful. Severe injury or death in an automobile tend
to not be.
Steve
----- Original Message -----
From: "Katie Allnutt" <allnutt at verizon.net>
To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 10:37 AM
Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Driving Help Needed
> In defense of Allen and his son I'd like to clarify that he is in the
> learning stage and this is a perfect example of how kids learn to
> drive. They go with their parents, make a 'learning' mistake, get
> corrected by the parent and go on.
> He doesn't need to have his license or permit pulled, he just needs
> to be corrected.
> Even though Allen says he continued to argue, that is typical for
> kids to do even when they agree with what the parent is saying.
>
> From my interactions with this kid in the neighborhood and school,
> he is a quick learner, he cares about doing things right (he was
> attempting to save gas which is a good goal and he had some logic
> behind his actions -he was under lights - even if it was slightly
> flawed logic), and from what I have seen he would not recklessly
> endanger himself or others. In other words he is a good kid and he
> is learning. Life is beautiful.
>
> Katie
>
>
> On Jan 14, 2008, at 10:13 AM, Steve Jerrett wrote:
>
>> Allen,
>>
>>
>> Does he have his license yet?
>>
>> If so, I would seriously consider suspending his driving
>> privileges. If he
>> makes those kinds of decisions with you in the car, who knows what
>> he does
>> if you are not there?
>>
>> Why are you debating with him? Inform him that he not only needs
>> to follow
>> the State Motor Vehicle Laws but your rules also. If he wants to
>> make up his
>> own rules, he needs to do so when he turns 21 with his own car and
>> insurance
>> policy. It is your responsibility to ensure that he is capable of
>> driving
>> without undue risk to the safety of himself and others.
>>
>>
>> Steve
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "+rlo" <rlo42 at yahoo.com>
>> To: "Forest Grove local interests list" <grovenet at rdrop.com>
>> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2008 9:19 AM
>> Subject: Re: [Grovenet] Driving Help Needed
>>
>>
>>> Again, another example of idiotic thoughts. This scares me! It
>>> doesn't
>>> matter if it's against the law or not...it is certainly against
>>> the law of
>>> common sense!
>>>
>>> Allen Warren <osubuckeye59 at yahoo.com> wrote: Last evening
>>> approximately
>>> 9:00 PM I was traveling north on Highway 47 with my 16-year old son
>>> driving, approaching the intersection at Highway 8. Approximately 100
>>> yards from the traffic signal the light changed to red. After
>>> stopping for
>>> the signal, my son put the drive gear in Park and turned off the
>>> car. It's
>>> important to note that when the motor is turned off the computer
>>> automatically turns off the lights.
>>>
>>> In a panic I asked, "what's wrong? why did you turn off the
>>> car?!". His
>>> reply: "Since we're going to be sitting here for awhile I wanted
>>> to save
>>> gas so I turned off the car." As you might expect, I told him to
>>> immediately start the car and turn the lights on.
>>>
>>> After my heart rate and blood pressure neared their normal levels, I
>>> informed my son that for the very short period of time we would be
>>> waiting
>>> for the traffic signal to turn green, we would actually use a
>>> little more
>>> fuel and it would be an extra load on the car's system to restart vs.
>>> sitting idling. I also informed my son that not only was it *NOT*
>>> safe to
>>> sit in a parked car with headlights off in a traffic lane at night
>>> but
>>> that I believed it to be against Oregon driving laws.
>>>
>>> My son was open to the potential of the no-real gas/energy savings
>>> answer
>>> being true (but still debated, as is normal for him) but argued that
>>> turning off the vehicle and sitting there in the dark was *NOT*
>>> unsafe as
>>> he said it was a well-lit area, and he also argued it wouldn't be a
>>> traffic violation. I argued it was unsafe because even though it was
>>> indeed a well-lit area and we were stopped at a red light signal,
>>> we were
>>> sitting in a car, in a traffic lane, with no lights on at night. I
>>> also
>>> informed him that unless the car was disabled and could not safely be
>>> moved to the side and off the roadway, deliberately parking a car
>>> in a
>>> traffic lane was a violation. He continued to argue his point this
>>> morning.
>>>
>>> I've looked on the DMV website and can't find actual text validating
>>> either of our positions. Does anyone know if what occurred last
>>> evening
>>> would be considered a violation under Oregon Motor Vehicle driving
>>> laws?
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for your help,
>>>
>>> Allen Warren
>>>
>>>
>>> _____________________________________________________________________
>>> _______________
>>> Be a better friend, newshound, and
>>> know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.
>>> http://mobile.yahoo.com/;_ylt=Ahu06i62sR8HDtDypao8Wcj9tAcJ
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ---------------------------------
>>> Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo!
>>> Search.
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> GroveNet mailing list
>>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> GroveNet mailing list
>> GroveNet at rdrop.com
>> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
> _______________________________________________
> GroveNet mailing list
> GroveNet at rdrop.com
> http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
>
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
____________________________________________________________________________
________
Looking for last minute shopping deals?
Find them fast with Yahoo! Search.
http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
_____________________________________________________________
Click to shop and save on brand name copiers today.
http://thirdpartyoffers.juno.com/TGL2121/fc/Ioyw6i3nZvdjF8M5uNg6YbJwcmVJmrX4
ky6tIubsJQga0IN6LU7Jv3/
_______________________________________________
GroveNet mailing list
GroveNet at rdrop.com
http://www.rdrop.com/mailman/listinfo/grovenet
_____
More information about the GroveNet
mailing list